       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: so aren't there more people who use FOSS in
                  Oman?
     <ljuwaidah>  there are, but they're only a few
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: ah.
       <rindolf>  Oman has .om as its TLD.
       <rindolf>  .om .nom .nom
       <rindolf>  p.om p.om
       <rindolf>  kabo.om
       <rindolf>  DJB got the cr.yp.to domain.
       <rindolf>  And there's also ali.as which is Adam Kennedy's.
     <ljuwaidah>  looool
     <ljuwaidah>  rand.om :P
     <ljuwaidah>  do.om :P
     <ljuwaidah>  ro.om
     <ljuwaidah>  m.om
 <Black_Phoenix>  your.m.om
     <ljuwaidah>  hahahaha
     <ljuwaidah>  is that supposed to be a milf site? :P
       <rindolf>  yahoo.c.om
     <ljuwaidah>  bro.om
       <rindolf>  http://yourmom.com/
       <rindolf>  Though it's down now.
     <ljuwaidah>  don't keep your hopes up on .om domains
     <ljuwaidah>  our ISP is a greedy money sucker
       <rindolf>  "I'd rather be a .com than a .om"
     <ljuwaidah>  rindolf: me too
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: this was a joke.
       <rindolf>  I have a few .org domains.
       <rindolf>  From GoDaddy
     <ljuwaidah>  unless you need it for a domain trick
               *  Black_Phoenix <--- .com bastard here
     <ljuwaidah>  rindolf: where's the joke?
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: joke?
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: it rhymes.
       <rindolf>  dot-com, dot-om - get it? get it? get it?
       <rindolf>  ;-)
     <ljuwaidah>  no :(
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: om rhymes with com.
     <ljuwaidah>  so?
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: "I'd rather be a dot-com than a dot-om"
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: it's just a silly rhyme.
 <Black_Phoenix>  I'd rather a website
       <rindolf>  Black_Phoenix: I accidentally a web-site.
     <ljuwaidah>  I still don't get the joke
 <Black_Phoenix>  rindolf, I'd still rather a blog
       <rindolf>  Black_Phoenix: rather what a blog?
 <Black_Phoenix>  Website a blog
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: never mind.
     <ljuwaidah>  sorry, I don't know why I'm slow today
       <rindolf>  Black_Phoenix: do you mean that you would rather *be* a
                  web-site?
 <Black_Phoenix>  I'd rather website a blog
 <Black_Phoenix>  broken grammar time :D
     <ljuwaidah>  Black_Phoenix: when did website become a verb?
 <Black_Phoenix>  it didn't
 <Black_Phoenix>  I'm using it as a verb to produce nonsense
     <ljuwaidah>  I sense light!
     <ljuwaidah>  {I see}
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: http://www.google.com.om/
     <ljuwaidah>  rindolf: I know
       <rindolf>  If Google can do it - so can you.
     <ljuwaidah>  I don't use it
     <ljuwaidah>  'cause some services don't work on it
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: ah.
       <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: in any case, seems like one can register a
                  .com.om domain.

    -- The .om domain
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
 <Quetzalcoatl_>  How do I write a computer vision program in C on a
                  microcontroller?
           <dyf>  Quetzalcoatl_: with a text editor?
 <Quetzalcoatl_>  Hmm.. Never thought of that. But which editor? Is
                  Notepad good enough?
         <mauke>  no, you need at least Wordpad
       <rindolf>  mauke: I suggest MS Word or at least OpenOffice.org
       <rindolf>  mauke: but in order to really be able to write well, you
                  need a desktop publishing program like Scribus or Adobe
                  FrameMaker.
               *  rindolf wonders which compiler will accept PDFs as
                  input.
       <waiting>  rindolf: /usr/bin/pdftotext
       <rindolf>  waiting: and pray.
       <rindolf>  There's an estoric programming language called Piet (I
                  think) that accepts images as input.

    -- How to write stylistic code
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
 <rindolf>  Deiu: which editor are you using?
    <Deiu>  Ugh, let me catch up with the convo first
    <Deiu>  And yeah, I use vim too
 <rindolf>  Deiu: ah good. If you were using Eight Megabytes And
            Continuously Swapping , I would have to swap you with it!
 <rindolf>  I have a column of vim tips on one of my blogs.
 <rindolf>  I also like Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift.
 <rindolf>  There are a lot of jokes about Emacs.
     <Zuu>  There are lots of jokes about your mom too ;)
 <rindolf>  Zuu: eMom
     <Zuu>  eh?
 <rindolf>  e-Macs -> eMum
 <rindolf>  "Your Mom is so fat, only Emacs takes more memory than her."
     <Zuu>  nope, doesnt work
 <rindolf>  Zuu: :-(
     <Zuu>  Your emacs is so fat that your mom could fit in it
 <rindolf>  Heh.
     <Zuu>  ahhh, yes, much better
 <rindolf>  Zuu++
     <Zuu>  :P
       -->  dbm has joined ##programming
         *  rindolf stores some key/value pairs in dbm
         *  Zuu stores some moms in dbm
     <dbm>  lol
 <rindolf>  Zuu: you overflowed him.
     <Zuu>  :>
     <dbm>  ;)
 <rindolf>  Or her, don't know.
 <rindolf>  them.
     <dbm>  'him'
 <rindolf>  OK.
 <rindolf>  dbm: I don't recall your nick.
     <dbm>  dbm= dont bother me
 <rindolf>  don't be mean.
     <dbm>  ;)
     <Zuu>  or: do bother me

    -- Your Emacs is so fat
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
                -->  xmler has joined ##programming
            <xmler>  Hi
            <xmler>  How can I do <a href="$variable">blah</a> in XSLT?
          <rindolf>  xmler: you can use <xsl:attribute>
          <rindolf>  xmler: or use ${...}
          <rindolf>  xmler: have you read the Zvon XSLT tutorial?
            <xmler>  rindolf: I've read various resources; perhaps it's
                     the fault of XML::XSLT on CPAN
          <rindolf>  xmler: use XML::LibXSLT instead.
          <rindolf>  It's faster and better.
              <Zuu>  <insert mean statement about XSLT>
              <Zuu>  :)
          <rindolf>  "XSLT is the work of Satan"
          <rindolf>  "It's the worst thing since non-sliced bread."
              <Zuu>  Hahaha :D
          <rindolf>  "Mothers used to tell their children about XSLT to
                     scare them."
            <xmler>  Haha
              <Zuu>  That last one is good
            <xmler>  XSLT seems pretty cool
              <Zuu>  xmler, no no, that's not mean
              <Zuu>  you're doing it wrong
              <Zuu>  :P
            <xmler>  XSLT is too cool to be mean to :p
              <Zuu>  Hehe
          <rindolf>  "XSLT is the number one cause of programmers'
                     suicides since Visual Basic 1.0"
 <tommy_the-dragon>  lol
              <Zuu>  :>
              <Zuu>  I could believe in that
          <rindolf>  "The X in XSLT stands for eXtermination."
          <rindolf>  "XSLT makes the baby jesus cry."
          <rindolf>  "The only things worse than XSLT are Excel and
                     sugarless tea."
 <tommy_the-dragon>  rofl
                  *  Zuu kinda likes Excel
          <rindolf>  Zuu: yes, it was a joke.
              <Zuu>  Noooh!
              <Zuu>  they are all true!
          <rindolf>  Now I'm out of ideas.
              <Zuu>  i havent even had a single idea yet..
          <rindolf>  "XSLT is what Chuck Norris has nightmares of."
              <Zuu>  Whoah!
              <Zuu>  wait.. that would somehow make XSLT cooler than Chuck
                     Norris...
              <Zuu>  Chuck Norris dont have mightmares
          <rindolf>  "Confucius e says: 'XSLT made me realise humanity was
                     hopeless."
              <Zuu>  "Even APL wont make friends with XSLT"
              <Zuu>  yay, i maded one!
          <rindolf>  "God considered using XSLT as the tenth plague of
                     Egypt, but thought it was too evil."
          <rindolf>  Zuu: :-)
              <Zuu>  Haha :D
              <Zuu>  that plauge one is awesome
          <rindolf>  "In Soviet Russia, XSLT codes you. Badly!"
          <rindolf>  "Satan condemned Hitler for a million years of
                     writing XSLT"
          <rindolf>  OK, back to work.
          <rindolf>  C - not XSLt.
              <Zuu>  :)
          <rindolf>  "The KGB used to torture their victims by having them
                     look at scrolling XSLT code"
            <xmler>  rindolf: lol, love the KGB + XSLT one
            <xmler>  rindolf: by the way, what's with the XSLT hate by the
                     way, is it some kind of meme? :p
                  *  Zuu gives xmler an XSLT interpreter written in XSLT
         <Jck_true>  I wanna make ASM code from XSLT
          <rindolf>  "My name is Inigo Montoya. You forced my father to
                     write XSLT. Prepare to die! And be thankful I don't
                     force you to write XSLT."
            <xmler>  Ah for gawd's sake. Can't install XML::LibXML, it
                     says I don't have libxml2 (I do)
          <rindolf>  xmler: do you have the -devel package?
          <rindolf>  xmler: what is your distro?
          <rindolf>  OS distro I mean.
            <xmler>  rindolf: Debian 4.0
            <xmler>  Ooh, perhaps I don't actually
          <rindolf>  xmler: ok, then apt-get install libxml-libxslt-perl
                  *  Zuu have to go o/
          <rindolf>  xmler: maybe we should discuss it on #perl?
          <rindolf>  Zuu: bye
          <rindolf>  Zuu: and beware of stray XSLT code.
              <Zuu>  I will :P
          <rindolf>  Zuu: OK.
            <xmler>  rindolf: sure, uno memento :)

    -- Chuck Norris is out! XSLT is in!
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
   <dazjorz>  rindolf!
   <dazjorz>  areth thou here?
   <rindolf>  Hi dazjorz
   <dazjorz>  :)
   <rindolf>  dazjorz: yes, I are here.
   <dazjorz>  isn't it kind of weird to have a programming channel when
              there are language specific channels around?
       <Zuu>  Muhah!
   <rindolf>  dazjorz: this is about programming in general.
   <rindolf>  At least theoretically.
   <rindolf>  And VB.NET questions.
 <joeyadams>  Well, ##programming is a good place to ask C questions and
              actually get helpful answers :)
   <dazjorz>  rindolf: did you intentionally make it look like vb.net is
              not programming?
   <rindolf>  dazjorz: meet Zuu - he's into Windows and D and stuff.
   <dazjorz>  !
   <rindolf>  dazjorz: no.
   <rindolf>  dazjorz: VB.NET is programming.
   <dazjorz>  hey Zuu, I'm dazjorz, I'm into linux and c and stuff.
   <rindolf>  But it has its own channel.
       <Zuu>  :>
   <dazjorz>  rindolf: I've been thinking about changing nicks
   <rindolf>  dazjorz: ah. so did I.
           *  Zuu is into everything sane, except the boring stuff
   <rindolf>  dazjorz: to what?
   <dazjorz>  rindolf: my current one is waaaay too lame, but "sjors" is
              probably too generic
   <rindolf>  dazjorz: I like dazjorz
   <dazjorz>  rindolf: I don't, because when people see my name is sjors,
              da zjorz is just too lame to bear
   <dazjorz>  rindolf: I was thinking about sjors, or some three-letter
              abbreviation of my name, sjg or so
       <Zuu>  how about.... 'carrot' ?
   <dazjorz>  I think I do prefer dazjorz over carrot
       <Zuu>  no worries, i promise not to stuff you up rindolf's tomato
              nose
       <Zuu>  hum :<
   <dazjorz>  Zuu: when I first read your nick on Shlomi's site five
              minutes ago, I asked him whether you were a mix between
              Zorix and Buu
   <dazjorz>  do you know the two?
   <rindolf>  Zoffix and buu.
       <Zuu>  nope
   <dazjorz>  uh zoffix yeah
   <dazjorz>  Zuu: okay, well, you don't know them, but believe me, I'm
              glad you're not a mix of the two, that would be horrible :P
       <Zuu>  im a mix of much worse personalities im sure
       <Zuu>  most of them just happen to cancel each other out

    -- Introudcing dazjorz to Zuu
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: I considered switching my default nick to
                     "shlomif", because that's how most people know me.
          <dazjorz>  rindolf: yeah, it's your alternative nick now right?
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: but then XChat2 reverted to the old nick and
                     I was too lazy.
           <unreal>  You seem to have many, well, stupid friends, rindolf
                     :P
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: yes, I have it registered.
          <rindolf>  unreal: stupid?
              <Zuu>  rindolf, noo! what to do about the tomato then? fish
                     dont have big tomato noses!
          <rindolf>  Zuu: fish?
          <rindolf>  Zuu: I'll give you a tomoato.
              <Zuu>  good question
          <rindolf>  I'll give you the tomato back.
              <Zuu>  where do i get fish from
              <Zuu>  no no, keep it :D
          <rindolf>  Zuu: my last name is Fish.
                  *  tommy_the-dragon slaps zuu with a fish
 <tommy_the-dragon>  there ya go
          <dazjorz>  rindolf: I just registered 'sjors'
                  *  rindolf gives a fish to Zuu
          <dazjorz>  rindolf: as a nick.
              <Zuu>  rindolf, thats just absurd, a reindeer with 'fish' as
                     surname...
              <Zuu>  your parents must have hated you
          <rindolf>  Open source: "everyone contributes a fish, and in
                     exchange everyone gets their own ocean."
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: ah, cool.
              <Zuu>  tommy_the-dragon, does dragons eat other animals,
                     like fish?
           <unreal>  Ocean == Big Momma's Bath?
          <rindolf>  Zuu: I'm not a reindeer - I just play one on T.V.
 <tommy_the-dragon>  not fish...
 <tommy_the-dragon>  just reindeers
              <Zuu>  tommy_the-dragon, what about fake TV reindeers ?
              <Zuu>  Nice :D
          <rindolf>  unreal: no, the whole enchilada.
          <rindolf>  tommy_the-dragon: LOL.
 <tommy_the-dragon>  and enchiladas
          <dazjorz>  rindolf: I know someone whose nick is Stonehead, he
                     made his three-letter acronym stn, but usually it's
                     letters from the first name
          <dazjorz>  uh
          <dazjorz>  the full name
          <dazjorz>  yours could be shf for example, and everybody would
                     know "hey, that's shlomi"
          <dazjorz>  but I'm at most sg, so I need to borrow another
                     letter somewhere, or make it daz or just sjors
                  *  dazjorz thinks
 <tommy_the-dragon>  my cat eats flies...
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: I hate these three letter acronyms.
              <Zuu>  shlomi really sounds like some dish made of reindeer
 <tommy_the-dragon>  but hes lucky because i dont eat cats
          <rindolf>  Zuu: heh.
           <unreal>  heh
          <rindolf>  tommy_the-dragon: I didn't know dragons had cats.
          <dazjorz>  what's the name of the red-nosed reindeer again?
              <Zuu>  it sounds edible at least
          <dazjorz>  oh rudolf :)
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: Randolph.
          <dazjorz>  oh
           <unreal>  I used to have a friend whos nick was "crap"
          <rindolf>  unreal: wow.
          <dazjorz>  <someguy> crap, someone stole my bicycle
          <dazjorz>  <crap> ok?
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: heh.
          <dazjorz>  rindolf: why don't you like the three-letter
                     acronyms?
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: often too confusing.
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: and two easy to mistype.
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: and not too memorable.
           <unreal>  LIS.
          <dazjorz>  three easy to mistype, I think
          <rindolf>  And often hard to pronounce.
          <dazjorz>  maybe I'll just go with sjors
          <rindolf>  too easy. Freudian.
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: yes, I think that's a good idea.
           <unreal>  (Lies, I say!)
          <dazjorz>  hehe, rindolf++ # freudian
              <Zuu>  or you could pick something girly and hope people
                     will treat you nicer :)
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: have you played with the farnsworth bot yet?
          <rindolf>  Zuu: RinGirl
          <rindolf>  Though nicks with "Girl " in them tend to draw too
                     much attention.
              <Zuu>  nah, it cant contain 'girl' that just seems fake
          <dazjorz>  rindolf: I have
          <dazjorz>  rindolf: remind me to fix knotify, khtml, and quassel
                     :(
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: nice.
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: using MemoServ?
          <dazjorz>  rindolf: the bugs annoy me, a lot, but I never get
                     around to actually trying to fix them
          <rindolf>  Zuu: maybe I should call myself "shlomi". Americans
                     will think I'm a girl.
              <Zuu>  yeah, it kinda have a girlish sound to it
          <dazjorz>  rindolf: call yourself shloma, dutch people will
                     think you're over sixty and female
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: heh.
          <dazjorz>  let me rephase that
          <dazjorz>  dutch people will think you're female... and over
                     sixty
          <dazjorz>  (oma = grandma)
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: ah.
           <unreal>  kloot.
          <rindolf>  In Hebrew nouns that end with "ah" tend to be
                     feminine.
          <dazjorz>  shlomah?
          <rindolf>  Seriously now, if I change my nick it will be to
                     shlomif.
          <dazjorz>  let's change our nicks at the same time
          <rindolf>  Well, in Shlomi's case it would be Shlomith.
          <dazjorz>  I will be sjors, you will be shlomif
          <rindolf>  dazjorz: OK.
                  *  rindolf is now known as shlomif
          <dazjorz>  shit, now I have to
              <Zuu>  what does shlimif even mean ?
                  *  dazjorz is now known as sjors
            <sjors>  Zuu: shlomi = his first name, f = the first letter of
                     his last name
          <shlomif>  sjors: hi.
          <shlomif>  Zuu: shlomi fish.
            <sjors>  hi shlomif
          <shlomif>  Hi sjors
 <tommy_the-dragon>  where does rindolf come into it?
          <shlomif>  sjors: my nick is longer than yours.
              <Zuu>  oh lol, and i just said his name sound girly :P
                  *  Zuu pat pats shlomif ^^
          <shlomif>  tommy_the-dragon: Rindolf was a dwarven warrior I
                     played in AD&D.
 <tommy_the-dragon>  ahh ok
                  *  shlomif gives Zuu his tomato back.
              <Zuu>  :<
          <shlomif>  Since I'm no longer a reindeer.
            <sjors>  shlomif: that's just to compensate against something
                     you have that's way shorter than mine
          <shlomif>  sjors: LOL.
          <shlomif>  sjors++
              <Zuu>  Erhmm.. shlomif! how come there's this big hole in
                     it?
 <tommy_the-dragon>  sorry...
 <tommy_the-dragon>  my bad
              <Zuu>  Hehe
                  *  shlomif doesn't like raw tomatoes.
          <shlomif>  But I eat them with pasta, etc.
          <shlomif>  Or as meat sauce.
              <Zuu>  or in sandwiches
          <shlomif>  sjors: anyway, welcome to ##programming
              <Zuu>  or on reindeer nose
          <shlomif>  sjors: I'll probably revert to "rindolf" after next
                     disconnect.
          <shlomif>  Zuu: after you cook the entire reindeer.
                  *  shlomif is a reindeer cannibal.
          <shlomif>  Well, rindolf is.
              <Zuu>  yes, but he ran away
          <shlomif>  I also like dried and olive oiled tomatoes.
            <sjors>  shlomif: I just changed my clients' settings to
                     reconnect as sjors, too
          <shlomif>  Well, I think I'll go to sleep.
          <shlomif>  sjors: ah.
            <sjors>  shlomif: it'll probably take a while to "adapt" to
                     sjors instead of dazjorz
          <shlomif>  sjors: well, enjoy your new nick.
            <sjors>  and I still have dazjorz.com, and not sjors.anything
                  *  Zuu tugs shlomif in
            <sjors>  thanks ;)
          <shlomif>  Zuu: thanks.
                  *  Zuu quicly squeeses a fresh tomato onto shlomif's
                     nose
            <sjors>  shlomif: sjors.biz and sjors.mobi at most
                  *  shlomif doesn't have rindolf.{com,org,net} etc.
          <shlomif>  sjors: maybe sjors.in
          <shlomif>  I got a shlom.in
            <sjors>  sjors.indahou.se
          <shlomif>  sjors: heh.
            <sjors>  sjors.ac, sjors.ag, sjors.am, sjors.at
            <sjors>  hehe sjors.me
            <sjors>  sjors.pl, too bad i don't really do perl anymore
          <shlomif>  sjors: there's also .sh
            <sjors>  sjors.sh, too bad I don't really do shell script a
                     lot
          <shlomif>  Or .im
            <sjors>  sjors.tv, too bad I don't really watch..
 <tommy_the-dragon>  do you own a mobile?
          <shlomif>  .tv are pretty costly.
            <sjors>  meh I don't like sjors. anyway, so I'll just keep
                     dazjorz for everything
 <tommy_the-dragon>  yeah whats with that (the price of .tv)?
          <shlomif>  tommy_the-dragon: it's the foundation of the economy
                     of Tuvaly.

    -- Reindeers, Tomatoes and Normalising Nicks
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
               *  rindolf tries to think what can cause the KDE 4 SNAFU on
                  his user.
       <rindolf>  And hopefully to avoid bissecting the KDE 4 config tree.
           <Zuu>  snafu... that wounds like a delicious cake :D
           <Zuu>  *sounds
       <rindolf>  Zuu: Situation Normal - All F****ed up.
           <Zuu>  :/
               *  Zuu gives the snafu cake to Dmage :D
           <Zuu>  Dmage, just eat the cake already
         <Dmage>  Zuu, are you hate my english? ;)
           <Zuu>  i hate your non-english
 <Black_Phoenix>  I english your hate
         <Dmage>  xD
           <Zuu>  Dmage, but i dont hate you! :D
 <Black_Phoenix>  and now I can do that
         <Dmage>  Zuu, learn russian then! :)
           <Zuu>  Hehe
           <Zuu>  Dmage, i think you'd hate my russion far more than i
                  would ever hate your english
       <rindolf>  Spasiva.
         <Dmage>  xD
         <Dmage>  learn 'Eto huinya!'
               *  Zuu steals the snafu cake back from Dmage and gives it
                  to rindolf instead
         <Dmage>  and apply everywhere
               *  rindolf eats the SNAFU cake
           <Zuu>  :D
               *  rindolf eats Zuu's Danish too.
           <Zuu>  Noooh!
               *  rindolf loves Zuu's Danish.
       <rindolf>  Yum yum.
           <Zuu>  tis mine!
           <Zuu>  My daaaanish :'(
       <rindolf>  My precioussssssssss!
           <Zuu>  tis gone :<

    -- SNAFU Cake
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
 <rindolf>  What should I do now?
 <rindolf>  I'll work on Text-Qantor.
 <rindolf>  It's so great not to have a job.
     <Zuu>  yeah, if someone else pays for the food it sure is :D
     <Zuu>  also, i dont really understand much of what you just told me
            :P
         *  Zuu puts a stick into the Text-Qantor
 <rindolf>  Zuu: Qantor == Qantor ain't no TeX/Troff oh really.
 <rindolf>  It's a typesetting system I'm working on.
         *  Zuu hates the name
     <Zuu>  it makes me kinda mad actually :/
 <rindolf>  Zuu: :-)
 <rindolf>  Zuu: maybe it will grow on you.
 <rindolf>  Zuu: some people I know named a browser suckass.
     <Zuu>  :(
 <rindolf>  I refused to work on it.
     <Zuu>  see that's a name!
 <rindolf>  Zuu: heh.
     <Zuu>  i didnt mean that btw :)
     <Zuu>  suckass is kinda... unkind
 <rindolf>  OK, now I should write an
            http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/XSLT/
            transformation.
 <rindolf>  I'll start from something I already have.
     <Zuu>  But the "X ain't no <something related>" is just a lame naming
            convention imho
     <Zuu>  yeah, work on some XSLT facts :D
 <rindolf>  Zuu: just call it Qantor then.
 <rindolf>  Without the mnemonics.
     <Zuu>  but anyone interrested will learn that it's an abbreviation
     <Zuu>  just by the fact that it's recursive makes me want to kill
            myself a little bit more :P
 <rindolf>  Zuu: do me a break and kill yourself.
     <Zuu>  :>
 <rindolf>  Less Zuus - more grass for evil reindeers like me to feed on.

    -- What is Qantor?
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
   <rindolf>  Pythack now was able to get the fc-solve test suite up and
              running.
       <Zuu>  eh?!
           *  Zuu solves rindolf
   <rindolf>  Zuu: http://fc-solve.berlios.de/
   <rindolf>  Zuu: I am not solvable.
   <rindolf>  I am Turing hard.
       <Zuu>  :S
           *  Zuu never heard of anything called 'turing hard'
 <joeyadams>  lol. Zuu's probabilistic, so maybe he can solve you.
       <Zuu>  but i guess i have now
 <joeyadams>  Formal definition of Turing hard: blah blah blah hard blah
              blah Turing blah.
       <Zuu>  Hahahaha :D
 <joeyadams>  Wikipedia: Given a set X in P(N), a set A in N is called
              Turing hard for X if X <=_T A for all X in X. If
              additionally A is in X, then A is called Turing complete for
              X.
 <joeyadams>  Does that clarify?
 <joeyadams>  (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_reduction for the
              actual math symbols)
           *  joeyadams assumes you get the point
       <Zuu>  yeah, i think i'll have to put significant time into that,
              for me to comprehend it :)
       <Zuu>  but maybe i will, some day :P
 <joeyadams>  My point is that people like to use mumbo jumbo to describe
              more concise mumbo jumbo.
 <joeyadams>  E.g. A problem is NP-hard if it is at least as hard as all
              the problems in NP.
       <Zuu>  i undersstand enough of it, to be fairly confident that
              rindolf being turing hard, will not say much about his
              ability to be solved
 <joeyadams>  I'm guessing Turing-hard means you can't solve a problem
              with a Turing machine (e.g. the halting problem)
 <joeyadams>  (substitute Turing machine with "your computer" :) )
       <Zuu>  no, turing hard has something to do with expressiveness
 <joeyadams>  okay, Zuu > joeyadams, so I can't help you :)
           *  Zuu tickles joeyadams ^^
 <joeyadams>  A delicious apple is any fruit ∈ apple that is at least as
              tasty as any other fruit ∈ apple.
 <joeyadams>  In other words, apples are in the set of recursively
              nommable fruits.
   <rindolf>  joeyadams: what's up?
 <joeyadams>  I'm babbling.
   <rindolf>  joeyadams: Apple is one of my least favourite fruits.
           *  Zuu watches a number of apples that recursively NOM's
              eathother
   <rindolf>  It tends to be too commonplace.
   <rindolf>  Or simpleton.
 <joeyadams>  whoops, my logic is incorrect
 <joeyadams>  Only delicious apples are ∈ the nommable fruits.
 <joeyadams>  (recursively is just a word you throw in to sound smart)
           *  Zuu NOMs joeyadams :>
   <rindolf>  joeyadams: a friend of one of my sisters said that Apple is
              his favourite fruit.
   <rindolf>  Ta-zuu!
           *  joeyadams has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection nommed by
              peer))
       <Zuu>  yeah, unfortunately a lot of people throw with a lot of
              words to sound smart :/
       <Zuu>  my favourite fruit is a recursive banana!
 <joeyadams>  although it certainly helps to use complex terminology to
              solve complex problems. As Aristophanes said, "High thoughts
              must have high language."
       <Zuu>  .. along with immutable polymorphic pears
 <joeyadams>  Zuu> I guess you have to peel it indefinitely?
 <joeyadams>  lol
       <Zuu>  Hahah, yeah :P
 <joeyadams>  I tend to eat bananas in deterministic polynomial time.
       <Zuu>  i eat them in linear time, but uses exponential space
 <joeyadams>  lol
   <rindolf>  Heh.
 <joeyadams>  eww

    -- Turing Hard
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
         -->  ecere has joined ##programming
 <ljuwaidah>  yo ecere!!
       <Zuu>  yay, life :)
           *  Zuu tickles ljuwaidah
           *  ljuwaidah punches zuu in the face
           *  Zuu starts crying :'(
   <rindolf>  Fight!
   <rindolf>  Fight! Fight!
           *  Zuu runs home to mommy
   <rindolf>  Let's get ready to rumble!!!
           *  ljuwaidah punches rindolf in the face
 <ljuwaidah>  for encouraging the fight, that is
       <Zuu>  hehe
           *  rindolf uses his Evil Antlers to summon a squadron of Chuck
              Norrises.
       <Zuu>  oh my!
           *  rindolf unleashes the Chuck Norrises upon ljuwaidah
           *  ljuwaidah uses his anti-chuck-norrise spell
       <Zuu>  those anterls must be the most evil thing in the entire
              universe
       <Zuu>  *antlers
   <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: your spell only works on one chuck norris at a
              day.
   <rindolf>  And I have 119 more.
   <rindolf>  Finish him!
       <Zuu>  i wonder what will happen if one Chuck Norris accidently
              punches another
 <ljuwaidah>  rindolf: then lemme use my duplication spell to make more of
              myself so THEY can use the spell
   <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: heh.
   <rindolf>  ljuwaidah++
 <ljuwaidah>  thanks :D
   <rindolf>  ljuwaidah: two can play this game.
           *  rindolf runs his recursive copying spell making lots of Evil
              rindolf reindeers exponentially.
   <rindolf>  Like Bacteria.
 <ljuwaidah>  darn! i didn't see that coming
 <ljuwaidah>  but you also forgot that if _I_ can duplicate myself then so
              can my duplicates B-)

    -- The Ultimate ##programming Showdown
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
                -->  ispy_ has joined ##programming
            <ispy_>  hi gang.
            <ispy_>  I'm a n00b programmer and think I should learn A and
                     B before C, right?
          <std_orb>  ispy_: General understanding should come before that.
            <ispy_>  std_orb: I have no idea what I'm doing...
          <std_orb>  ispy_: I can see that
                  *  ispy_ kicks the dirt...
 <tommy_the-dragon>  ive been meaning to get into it
            <ispy_>  Is C like JavaScript?
            <ispy_>  Same thing right?
 <tommy_the-dragon>  ispy_: lol
          <rindolf>  ispy_: Perl is more like C than JS is.
            <ispy_>  rindolf: Never heard of Perl... I should google that.
          <rindolf>  ispy_: use Bing search instead.
          <rindolf>  Or Altavista.
         <Terminus>  rindolf: i see.
            <ispy_>  rindolf, std_orb, tommy_the-dragon ... thanks for the
                     pointers :)
          <rindolf>  ispy_: you should learn Intercal, it's the most
                     expressive language possible.
            <ispy_>  rindolf: Sounds exciting!
         <Terminus>  intercal... lol!
            <ispy_>  haha
            <ispy_>  ok ok ok... I can't continue this... I'm practically
                     laughing my ass off at my desk.
          <rindolf>  :-)
            <ispy_>  hehe

    -- Emulating a Clueless Newbie
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
     <Zuu>  Hai all
 <rindolf>  Zuu: hai hai.
 <rindolf>  Zuu: what's up , kit?
 <rindolf>  Zuu: or what are you , I forgot?
     <Zuu>  Hai rindolf :D
 <rindolf>  I am a reindeer.
 <rindolf>  But also a Llama.
 <rindolf>  And a cat.
     <Zuu>  I'm a Zuu
 <rindolf>  And a fish naturally.
 <rindolf>  Zuu: ah , OK.
     <Zuu>  :D
         *  rindolf creates a Zoo of Zuus
     <Zuu>  ^^
 <rindolf>  Are you the master Zuu?
 <rindolf>  Like Q is the master of the Q's in Star Trek?
     <Zuu>  i think im the only Zuu
 <rindolf>  Oh, one of a kind.
     <Zuu>  Which is kinda sad really :(
     <Zuu>  Who am i supposed to mate with?
 <rindolf>  Reminds me of
            http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/Blue-Rabbit-Log/ideas.xhtml
 <rindolf>  Though I need to add that part.
 <rindolf>  Let me do it now.
     <Zuu>  whatever webserver you use, it doesnt provide the right
            mimetype... At least IE 8 dont attempt to render the document
 <rindolf>  Zuu: you cannot using IE 8
 <rindolf>  Zuu: you need Firefox.
 <rindolf>  Zuu: it's application/xml+xhtml
 <rindolf>  Or Opera.
     <Zuu>  well, it indeed is the right mimetype... stupid IE
     <Zuu>  well, my FF crashed, so i just use IE when that happens
 <rindolf>  Zuu: ah.
 <rindolf>  FF crashed?
 <rindolf>  How strange.
 <rindolf>  Maybe you have a bad plugin.
     <Zuu>  It does that around 6 times a day
 <rindolf>  Not an extension - a plugin.
 <rindolf>  Ah, really.
 <rindolf>  Something is wrong in the Zuuniverse.
 <rindolf>  Or Zuumputer.
     <Zuu>  nah, i suspect one of the tabs are just doing some strange
            stuff
     <Zuu>  memory leaking javascript ro something like that
     <Zuu>  it is kinda starting to annoy me
     <Zuu>  but with 90 - 120 tabs, it would take quite a while to find
            out what tab it is
     <Zuu>  you might consider starting your articles, or whatever this
            is, with an introduction telling what it's about
 <rindolf>  Zuu:
            http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/Blue-Rabbit-Log/ideas.xhtml#the-angry-demon
 <rindolf>  Zuu: it's not an article - these are random ideas for a
            screenplay.
 <rindolf>  Zuu: but I'll write an intro.
     <Zuu>  start the page with "Here are some of my random ideas for a
            screen play im writing:"
     <Zuu>  at LEAST!
     <Zuu>  you cant just jump right into something without giving _any_
            indication ow what the reader can expect
     <Zuu>  it simply doesnt make any sense as it is now
     <Zuu>  you could just as well have posted a log of ljuwidah talking
            :P
 <rindolf>  Zuu: thanks.
     <Zuu>  :)
 <rindolf>  Zuu:
            http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/Blue-Rabbit-Log/ideas.xhtml#intro
 <rindolf>  Interactive Web!
     <Zuu>  i think you have forgottoen to define the #intro anchor
 <rindolf>  Zuu: reload.
 <rindolf>  Zuu: it's there.
     <Zuu>  hah, caches... :P
     <Zuu>  :D
 <rindolf>  Pesky things.
 <rindolf>  Evil reindeers don't like caches.
 <rindolf>  Neither do cats.
 <rindolf>  I'm an evil reindeer but a good cat.
     <Zuu>  Hehe
 <rindolf>  Don't know how it works.
 <rindolf>  I guess good and evil are relative.
 <rindolf>  Or actually I wore a helmet of alignment change.

    -- What kind of animal is a Zuu?
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
      <Zuu>  Hi rindolf :)
  <rindolf>  Hi Zuu
  <rindolf>  Zuu: I've been thinking that maybe you can find some
             corresponding Zuus of the appropriate sex in a different
             dimension.
      <Zuu>  hmmm... interresting!
  <rindolf>  Zuu: are you a heterosexual Zuu or a homosexual one?
      <Zuu>  Im not sure what sex I am.
  <rindolf>  Zuu: ah.
      <Zuu>  :P
  <rindolf>  Zuu: you can look.
  <rindolf>  Zuu: in the mirror or something.
  <rindolf>  Zuu: don't you have obligatory genders in Danish/
  <rindolf>  ?
  <rindolf>  Like in German, French, etc.
  <rindolf>  Or Hebrew and Arabic.
      <Zuu>  obligatory genders?
      <Zuu>  you mean, the genders in linguistics?
          *  Zuu never understood those
      <Zuu>  but Danish have two i believe, and if i remember correctly
             there is female and 'none'
  <rindolf>  Zuu: yes, genders in linguistics.
      <Zuu>  i dont remember what which is which though :P
  <rindolf>  Like in Hebrew "Haben Halakh lagan" - the boy went to the
             garden. "Habath Halkha lagan" - "The girl went to the garden"
 <c_sphere>  That almost sounds like allah akbar
      <Zuu>  rindolf, no we dont distinct between the genders of the
             subject in the danish language
      <Zuu>  our nouns have genders though
 <c_sphere>  zuu-nina?
      <Zuu>  like 'house' is one gender and 'car' is another
  <rindolf>  Zuu: of course the question is - what language do Zuus speak
             natively?
 <c_sphere>  rindolf: Of course, Zuu speaks Zuu!
  <rindolf>  Zuuish?
 <c_sphere>  The Zulu population also does not speak Zuluish, just Zulu.
      <Zuu>  so if you want to say 'the house' its 'huse_t_' and if you
             want to say 'the car' its 'bile_n_'
  <rindolf>  c_sphere: Arnavoth (sounds like an Aztec god) is "Hares" (the
             Rabbit-like mammal) in Hebrew.
  <rindolf>  Zuu: can you understand Swedish?
 <c_sphere>  Aemeth
      <Zuu>  rindolf, some :)
  <rindolf>  Zuu: ah.
      <Zuu>  swedish branched from danish afaik
      <Zuu>  same with norwegian
      <Zuu>  yes, Zuu's speak Zuuish nativley :P
          *  rindolf is listening to Hans Zimmer - Jack Sparrow
  <rindolf>  Zuu: ah.
      <Zuu>  Zuuish have few words, all of which is based on words about
             cake from othre languages :P
      <Zuu>  c_sphere, are you by any chance related to s_cube ?
  <rindolf>  Zuu: ah, what do you use the Hebrew word "עוגיה" (= `ugiyah,
             cookie) for?
  <rindolf>  "Chocolate chip pie crust marmalade marzipan cookie yum yum!"
      <Zuu>  i use it for cookies baked from a hebrew recipe :P
  <rindolf>  What does it mean in Zuuish?
      <Zuu>  it's hard to really say something in Zuuish... al you can
             really do is say something equivalent to "COOKIES!!"
      <Zuu>  or "YAY CAKE!"
      <Zuu>  basically, you can only express excitement over different
             kinds of cakes :P
  <rindolf>  Zuu: do Zuus eat anything except cakes or cookies?
      <Zuu>  There was this one time...
      <Zuu>  wait.. no. That was someone else.

    -- What can a Zuu do?
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
  <rindolf>  Chekov: I disagere with what ESR says in TAOUP that you
             shouldn't apply factor optimisations. I think they can make a
             very large difference.
  <rindolf>  Chekov: he seems to imply you should wait until computers are
             fast enough.
  <rindolf>  Problem is people don't want to upgrade and if a competing
             program (maybe a fork ) is much faster, then some of them
             will switch.
  <rindolf>  Programs being speedy is one thing that makes me happy.
  <rindolf>  I love all the work the KDE people did in making KDE-4.6.0
             fast.
 <vanguard>  rindolf: awesome blog link!
  <rindolf>  And I enjoy the fact that Pidgin is much faster than Kopete
             (and also less buggy).
  <rindolf>  I've used Kopete for far too long.
  <osoleve>  rindolf: switch to Irssi and Bitlbee! :D
  <rindolf>  vanguard: yes.
  <rindolf>  vanguard: though they failed on Google Wave.
  <rindolf>  osoleve: nah, I like Pidgin.
  <rindolf>  osoleve: it's fast enough for me.
  <rindolf>  osoleve: and I also prefer XChat.
  <osoleve>  but is it nerdy enough?
  <rindolf>  osoleve: I'm not trying to be a Ubergeek.
  <rindolf>  osoleve: real men use Xmonad!
 <vanguard>  Hey, it is not Uber but Über ... :D
  <rindolf>  real programmers use butterflies.
   <Chekov>  real programmers are Tao
  <osoleve>  real programmers flip bits by hand
   <Chekov>  real programmers speak assembly
  <rindolf>  Chuck Norris is a real programmer who implements the most
             optimised machines for solving a problem out of physical
             atoms.
 <vanguard>  real programmers use a nice editor and a programming language
             and get done in less than O(N!)

    -- Real Programmers
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
        <wes_>  tell me how can u print a message without using a
                semicolon in the printg statement
     <rindolf>  wes_: in C?
     <rindolf>  wes_: do you mean the printf(...) statement?
        <wes_>  yes
     <rindolf>  wes_: you cannot without using macros I think.
     <rindolf>  wes_: and don't use macros for that.
        <wes_>  i mean without using a semicolon at the printf statement
                but you have to use printf only
     <rindolf>  wes_: why would you want to do that?
     <rindolf>  wes_: what do you have against semicolons?
     <rindolf>  Some of my best friends are semicolons.
  <lulzfish_4>  semicolons got me where I am today man
     <rindolf>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicolon
     <rindolf>  lulzfish_4: heh.
     <rindolf>  "I owe it all to semicolons."
  <amigojapan>  hey rindolf lulzfish_4
     <rindolf>  Hi amigojapan
     <rindolf>  amigojapan: what's up?
             *  rindolf gives a semicolon to amigojapan
             *  amigojapan returns a whitespace to rindolf
     <rindolf>  amigojapan: that's not fair trade.
     <rindolf>  But I'll treasure the whitespace.
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: a whitespace is just as valuable as a semicolon
                in python :)
     <rindolf>  amigojapan: aren't semicolons optional in Py?
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: I think they are
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: actually, a whitespace can be as valuable as 2
                curly braces :)
     <rindolf>  amigojapan: heh.
     <rindolf>  amigojapan: you need 4 spaces to distinguish stuff
                properly.
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: one thing I never got about python is why they
                need the : after if and for statements....
             *  PythonSnake gives a colon to rindolf
 <PythonSnake>  :)
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: actually, I preffer using tabs to 4 spacess...
     <rindolf>  PythonSnake: thanks for the colon.
 <PythonSnake>  rindolf: lol
     <rindolf>  PythonSnake: I'll give you a « and a » in exchange.
 <PythonSnake>  lol
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: the fact that you dont have a rule to how much
                white space you must use to indent in python, I think is a
                bad thing...
             *  PythonSnake finds a interrobang
 <PythonSnake>  :)
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: if it is 4 spaces then fine, but make it a rule
                so it is consistent
      <GeDaMo>  ‽
 <PythonSnake>  lol
 <PythonSnake>  ‽
 <PythonSnake>  ∴
 <PythonSnake>  ‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡
     <rindolf>  ¿
 <PythonSnake>  ₳ ฿ ₵ ¢ ₡ ₢ ₠ $ ₫ ৳ ₯ € ƒ ₣ ₲ ₴ ₭ ℳ ₥ ₦ ₧ ₱ ₰
 <PythonSnake>  :)
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: oh, now you are speaking spanish
     <rindolf>  amigojapan: :-)
 <PythonSnake>  all: :)
     <rindolf>  ¡I am!
  <amigojapan>  うるさいよ 文字化け
 <PythonSnake>  Jag förvrängd bullriga
 <PythonSnake>  איך גאַרבאַלד טומלדיק
 <PythonSnake>  :)
  <amigojapan>  ah, hebrew
  <amigojapan>  hir something....
 <PythonSnake>  º, ª
  <amigojapan>  man, I forgot how to read hebrew
     <rindolf>  amigojapan: איך גאַרבאַלד טומלדיק seems like Yiddish.
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: ah, ok.... can you change it into roman letters
                for me?
     <rindolf>  amigojapan: Ich Garbald Tomldiq.
  <amigojapan>  ich would be I
  <amigojapan>  I think I only know curse words in yuddish :P
 <PythonSnake>  ich bin masaru
  <lulzfish_4>  ich bin ein berlinner
             *  rindolf is eating watermelon.
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: save a piece for me :)
     <rindolf>  amigojapan: I'll save a semicolon for you.
       <PiX3L>  rindolf: For me too. :)
  <amigojapan>  rindolf: a semicolon looks alot like twso pits of a
                watermellon
             *  amigojapan steals PiX3L 's piece

    -- Give Your Friend a Semicolon Today
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
      <Endiannes>  vinleod, Yes, he wants to find a solution which yields
                   a point 10 units away, your solution yields a point,
                   exactly 7.66044 units away
      <Endiannes>  vinleod, Oh wait
      <Endiannes>  vinleod, I'm an idiot, didnt factor out cos
      <Endiannes>  vinleod, Yes you're right.
                *  Endiannes kicks calculator
        <vinleod>  hehe, I was in the process of writing a python script
                   to prove it.
                *  speedrunnerG55 picks up Endianness calculator
 <speedrunnerG55>  NEVER KICK YOUR CALCULATOR
        <CryWolf>  Kicking your calculator is a sin
      <Endiannes>  At least its not a cos.
        <vinleod>  but you should at least get a tan
        <rindolf>  Heh.

    -- Calculator
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
 <monsterwizard>  Ok so I know javascript, php, perl in some detail.
                  However, I want to become good at one. I was thinking
                  Perl?
       <rindolf>  monsterwizard: roll a die.
 <monsterwizard>  rindolf the die showed a 7 :S
       <rindolf>  monsterwizard: heh.
           <hmm>  lol
       <rindolf>  monsterwizard: strange die.
           <hmm>  throw away the die
               *  rindolf throws the die at hmm
               *  hmm catches
       <rindolf>  die, die, die!
               *  hmm wants to live
       <rindolf>  hmm: but the die wants to die.
       <rindolf>  Take it out of its misery.
           <hmm>  who knows, even the die isn't ready to die
       <rindolf>  hmm: dice should be diced.
       <rindolf>  dice on ice.
           <hmm>  yeah, go dice the dice

    -- The Universal Die
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
                  *  hackerhackingcan (~hackingca@117.202.19.189) has
                     joined ##programming
 <hackerhackingcan>  Hi friends
 <hackerhackingcan>  I am also new to hacking
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: hi.
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: I hope you mean software
                     development - not computer intrusion.
 <hackerhackingcan>  what means intrusion?
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: it means breaking into other
                     people's systems.
 <hackerhackingcan>  I want to hack the internet websites like google and
                     facebook
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: hack?
 <hackerhackingcan>  can you help please?
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: hack into?
 <hackerhackingcan>  yes I am new but I will try and learn
 <hackerhackingcan>  but can you help me rindolf?
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: we won't help you break into
                     systems.
             <pkkm>  wut? hack into google?
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: with what?
 <hackerhackingcan>  hack into facebook google and internet
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: we build systems - not break them.
 <hackerhackingcan>  please?
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan:
                     http://catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/script-kiddie.html
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: if you want to learn how to
                     program, we can help you.
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: but trying to break into computer
                     systems will only get you in trouble.
 <hackerhackingcan>  I can do programming in html
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: HTML is not a programming language.
 <hackerhackingcan>  is that enough for hacking?
          <vinleod>  hackerhackingcan: There's no such things as
                     programming in HTML.
 <hackerhackingcan>  I can also do hacks in cmd
          <vinleod>  Ah, a script kiddie.
 <hackerhackingcan>  what you mean by scrpt kiddie?
 <hackerhackingcan>  ok now I know
 <hackerhackingcan>  you all dont want other people to know about hacking
 <hackerhackingcan>  so you say like this
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan:
                     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Script_kiddie
 <hackerhackingcan>  so you abused me by calling me script kiddie?
 <hackerhackingcan>  When I become a good hacker I will hack you also
          <vinleod>  hackerhackingcan: Good luck with that. bye bye.
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: OK, you have been warned.
 <hackerhackingcan>  why warn?
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: try hacking into the IP address
                     127.0.0.1
          <vinleod>  hackerhackingcan: I bet you can't log into that
                     computer and delete all of its files.
           <luke_c>  hackerhackingscan: After that, try to DDOS
                     192.168.1.1
 <hackerhackingcan>  is 127.0.0.1 your ip?
          <Ethelim>  why'd you give him my iP ffs?
          <Ethelim>  don't try it, you wouldn't get in anyway. I have it
                     locked down tightly
          <vinleod>  hackerhackingcan: So, here's the situation. We don't
                     condone illegal activity. We don't suggest that
                     people attempt illegal activity. We don't like people
                     who do illegal activity. We a programmers. We like to
                     write programs. We like to solve interesting
                     problems. We like to solve interesting puzzles.
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: if you haven't noticed, I've become
                     op.
          <rindolf>  hackerhackingcan: and I can /kick you and /kickban
                     you.
          <vinleod>  hackerhackingcan: Now, if you'd like be a good,
                     productive member of society and learn to program, we
                     can help with that, but we won't spoon feed you
                     either.
 <hackerhackingcan>  hahah whose is this ip 192.168.1.1? Your password is
                     admin haha
          <Ethelim>  is he for real?
          <vinleod>  Ethelim: I doubt it.
 <hackerhackingcan>  192.168.1.1 I am changing your password then call me
                     kid
          <rindolf>  Ethelim: he seems like a bad troll.
          <rindolf>  But an amusing one.
         <jrslepak>  rindolf: depends on how many times you've heard the
                     joke in the recent past
          <Ethelim>  dude, you wouldn't get in there. And even if you did
                     all you'd be able to do is reset the guy's connection
 <hackerhackingcan>  I will reset it
                  *  Ethelim waits for "someone's" closed connection
              <mst>  "Quit: Leaving"
          <vinleod>  I saw that coming a mile away/
      <JabbaWokiee>  lol
              <mst>  not an actual fell-off-the-internet
              <mst>  reasonable exit though
              <mst>  oh, and now he's back with a new nick

    -- From HTML to Hacking Google in Ten Easy Steps
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
          <oilio>  so what the point of hashes, can't we just use void
                   pointers to key/val ?
        <rindolf>  oilio: hashes as in hash tables?
          <oilio>  yes
        <rindolf>  oilio: OK.
        <rindolf>  oilio: they are one way to efficiently implement the
                   dictionary Abstract Data Type (ADT).
        <rindolf>  oilio: a hash table can store more than one key , value
                   pair.
          <oilio>  yeah, I read about it in the wikipedia
        <rindolf>  oilio: and you can lookup a value based on a key
                   efficiently.
         <arubin>  Linear search is good enough for everyone.
          <oilio>  indolf: what if the hole table wont fit in the memory?
          <oilio>  RAM
         <arubin>  Swap.
         <arubin>  Amazon S3.
 <imlearningyacc>  well if no ram and no swap no allocation
         <arubin>  We have the whole Internet for our tables.
 <imlearningyacc>  well
      <diminoten>  ask reddit how that worked out
         <arubin>  And remember, /dev/null is web-scale.
 <imlearningyacc>  yea, I store all my data in /dev/null
        <rindolf>  oilio: then you'll need to use a more sophisticated
                   (and slower) data structure that can offload to disk.
         <arubin>  It is really fast.
         <arubin>  I use the Boost libraries for /dev/null too.
         <arubin>  And I use async writes to /dev/null.
        <rindolf>  arubin: heh.
      <diminoten>  don't want to get into resource contention when using
                   /dev/null
                *  rindolf uses /dev/null for backups.
      <diminoten>  only so much null to go around

    -- /dev/null - the ultra-fast solution for all your storage needs.
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
 <jparkton>  and ya know. I bet if one distro popped an i in front like
             iUbunt, iFedora or some jazz about 300 million people would
             shell out astronomical amounts of money just to have one
             before anyone else
    <WinNY>  Macs are evil.
 <impulse9>  iCry
   <jercos>  iDerp
 <jparkton>  iFail
 <jparkton>  iStone
 <impulse9>  iQuack
 <jparkton>  iFap
    <Jeaye>  ifap.cum
 <jparkton>  iClean
 <jparkton>  iBarf
 <jparkton>  iReturn
 <impulse9>  iI
  <rindolf>  jparkton: this reminds me of
             http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=sharp-perl-paid-version-of-cpan
             .
  <rindolf>  iCanHazCheezburger.
  <rindolf>  iSuck.
  <rindolf>  iAmSpartacus.
 <impulse9>  iAmYourFather
 <jparkton>  prolly some new iFag rage
  <rindolf>  iAmLame
 <impulse9>  iBlame

    -- iSuckLessThanJ
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
     <rindolf>  marzy: Emacs is not a better vim. They are very different.
     <rindolf>  marzy: I could never get used to Emacs, but have used Vim
                for many years.
       <marzy>  rindolf Emacs + Evil mode makes a better vim
     <rindolf>  marzy: does it support all Vim extensions?
       <marzy>  no, that's why its better. it doesn't come with retarded
                scripting language!!
     <rindolf>  marzy: well, it's still not 100% compatible with vim.
     <rindolf>  marzy: and Evil is an awful name. Sorry.
     <rindolf>  "The only thing more evil than XSLT is XSLT edited with
                Emacs Evil mode." ;-)
       <marzy>  i think it's a good name considering emacs and vi(m)
                rivalry
     <rindolf>  marzy: of course, I've heard worse - coq and coccinelle.
     <rindolf>  And then there's this guy here who called his programming
                language Flua which reminds me of Flu and Influenza.
 <Reactionary>  rindolf: lol
  <dardevelin>  rindolf, flua IDE is not that bad to be fair (at least the
                little i tried )
     <rindolf>  dardevelin: didn't say *it* was bad - I said the name was
                bad.
     <rindolf>  dardevelin: and I could never get it running here.
                Problems with Py3 and PyQt.
  <dardevelin>  rindolf, oh that sucks... :/
     <rindolf>  dardevelin: yes.
  <dardevelin>  rindolf, yeah i know you didn't said it was bad, just as
                gave you my opinion on it as a side note. sorry i should
                have made it more explicit :)
     <rindolf>  Of course, Evil is not as bad a name as SLIME, which is
                another Emacs mode.
  <dardevelin>  rindolf, i had troubles with SLIME once and boy i got
                tired of fighting with it
     <rindolf>  Reportedly it was also the nickname of an internal
                Microsoft version control system called SLM (that is now
                largely discontinued).

    -- A rose by any other name
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
 <codescience>  just stumbled across another question. is there an
                open-source license that prevent anyone from making money
                off my code?
     <rindolf>  codescience: no there isn't.
     <rindolf>  codescience: it stands against the open source definition.
        <ssta>  codescience: that would violate the spirit of what most
                people understand "open source" to mean
     <rindolf>  codescience: people can sell copies of open source
                software or services related to it.
 <codescience>  hmmm, i understand
     <rindolf>  codescience: see
                http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
        <ssta>  I can legally sell you this copy of the linux kernel...I
                can charge whaqtever you are willing to pay. Nothing in
                the license prevents this
     <rindolf>  ssta: will you sell it to me for 5,000 USD?
     <rindolf>  ;-)
        <ssta>  rindolf: sure
     <rindolf>  ssta: how about for 3,000 USD?
        <ssta>  rindolf: tell you what, for $10,000 I'll throw in a free
                copy of FreeBSD
     <rindolf>  ssta: wow, sounds like a good deal.
        <ssta>  rindolf: hmm, 3000 is a bit low, I don't think I could go
                that cheap
     <rindolf>  ssta: heh.
     <rindolf>  ssta: how much are you selling the source code of Apache
                2.4 for?
        <ssta>  rindolf: oh, you can have that for free
     <rindolf>  ssta: really?
     <rindolf>  Sucker!
        <ssta>  rindolf: sure...but the build scripts you have to pay for
     <rindolf>  ssta: OK.
     <rindolf>  ssta: would you be willing to exchange the source of the
                Linux kernel for three copies of jQuery? I will even throw
                in a few free Dojo plugins.
     <rindolf>  ssta: he already told us.
        <ssta>  rindolf: hmm, not sure I want jQuery
        <ssta>  rindolf: would you happen to have code for a halfway
                decent RDBMS? I think I could swap for that
     <rindolf>  ssta: I have the source code for MySQL. Not sure if it's
                half-decent.
 <codescience>  i run a mysql server. runs good enough for me
        <ssta>  rindolf: I use MySQL in production quite a lot. It has its
                flaws, but my use cases never seem to hit them
     <rindolf>  ssta: OK.
     <rindolf>  ssta: so will you exchanges its source code for the Linux
                kernel?
        <ssta>  rindolf: sure
     <rindolf>  ssta: sounds good.
     <rindolf>  ssta: you can find the source code of MySQL here -
                http://www.mysql.com/
        <ssta>  rindolf: you can get the linux source from kernel.org
     <rindolf>  ssta: thanks.

    -- Premium price for free (in either meaning) software.
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
 <doomrobo>  rindolf, I got redirected to your gcc important flags page
             today and I think you may be missing a few things
  <rindolf>  doomrobo: do you mean the one in the talk?
  <rindolf>  doomrobo: which page are you referring to?
 <doomrobo>  rindolf, lemme see
  <rindolf>  http://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/W2L/Development/slides/gcc/flags.html
             - heh, first Google hit for "gcc important flags"
  <rindolf>  At least for me.
 <doomrobo>  yeah
  <rindolf>  doomrobo: OK, I did not originate that page originally.
 <doomrobo>  ok
  <rindolf>  doomrobo: and it served a certain purpose as material for
             slides to the Haifa Linux Club's Welcome to Linux series.
 <doomrobo>  nice
          *  jrslepak always found it funny that -Wall doesn't turn on all
             of the warnings
 <jrslepak>  . o O ( gcc -Wno-really-I-mean-all ... )
  <rindolf>  -Wevery-warning-under-the-sun-and-then-some
  <rindolf>  -W42
  <rindolf>  -Wchuck-norris
 <doomrobo>  -Wextra
 <doomrobo>  -whipped-cream
 <jrslepak>  and of course -WTF
  <rindolf>  jrslepak: :-)
  <rindolf>  -Worse
  <rindolf>  -Worse-is-better
 <jrslepak>  -Wat
  <rindolf>  -Whoops
 <doomrobo>  -S -Illy -Wabbit
  <rindolf>  Heh.
 <jrslepak>  -Wascally-wabbit
 <jrslepak>  (which really needs to be the name of a future Ubuntu
             release)
 <doomrobo>  people reading this are probably just shaking their heads
 <jrslepak>  hey, at least it's not -fallow-undecidable-instances ¬_¬

    -- gcc -Whatever
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
     <tnzr>  does anyone happen to know what std::allocator.allocate()
             does when you try to allocate 0 bytes? I get a pointer back
             but I can't tell what it's pointing at and I can't seem to
             find anything on the web that gives a difinitive answer
   <GeDaMo>  Why are you allocating zero bytes?
 <Billiard>  tnzr: the same thing it always returns
     <tnzr>  GeDaMo: we are implementing our own allocator for an
             assignment, and when asked what we should do if the user
             tries to allocate 0 bytes, the prof said to find out what
             std::allocator does and mimic that
   <GeDaMo>  http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6065814/standard-compliant-custom-allocator
     <tnzr>  oh snap, thanks GeDaMo
   <GeDaMo>  :)
  <rindolf>  GeDaMo: zero bytes are enough to hold the Complete Works of
             Shakespeare.
   <GeDaMo>  Depends on how many monkeys you have to decompress it :P
  <rindolf>  GeDaMo: heh.
  <rindolf>  Of course, I defined a custom decompressor that emits the
             complete works of Shakespeare on empty input and uses gzip
             compression otherwise.
  <rindolf>  It's pretty large though.
 <Billiard>  redeemed: compress the decompressor using the same algo
 <Billiard>  errr rindolf
  <rindolf>  Billiard: OK.
  <rindolf>  Billiard: heh.
 <Billiard>  0 bytes = a decompressor for the entire works of shakespeare

    -- Shakespeare, compressed
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
  <rindolf>  Hi all.
   <vandos>  hi
  <rindolf>  Hello Ruby Tuesday.
 <famously>  goodbye ruby tuesday
 <famously>  hello emerald thursdays!
 <famously>  now i have to choose a precious stone for each day of the
             week, thanks
 <famously>  this is going to take half the night
 <Textmode>  sapphire Sundays
  <rindolf>  Pearl Mondays.
  <rindolf>  Diamond Saturdays.
 <famously>  YES!
 <famously>  diamond saturday definitely
 <famously>  i thought the same thing
 <famously>  i guess there's already a gemstone for every month, so this
             would be seen as kind of a ripoff
 <famously>  maybe a metal for every day

    -- Sunny Diamonds
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
    <Zepo>  Either our mac server is sending out little electroshocks
            through his cage and into my foot or he is just vibrating
            really strange...
 <rindolf>  Zepo: a mac server?
    <Zepo>  rindolf: jeh, we have a macserver running a vm with a ubuntu
            server
 <rindolf>  Zepo: hmm... interesting.
    <Zepo>  rindolf: Most people react like "what the...?!"
 <rindolf>  Zepo: next you'll tell me that you have an HP/UX Desktop.
    <Zepo>  rindolf: I am not that crazy, my chef made this...thing...

    -- Using the right tool for the job
    -- ##programming, Freenode
%
      <cheeseduck>  rindolf: How long have you got on the book?
            <Jude>  rindolf, did you check out the new game of thrones
                    episode?
         <rindolf>  Jude: no, I don't watch Game of Thrones.
         <rindolf>  Jude: I did see this on Slashdot -
                    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/03/31/1347248/hbo-says-game-of-thrones-piracy-is-a-compliment
                    .
         <rindolf>  Jude: quite encouraging.
            <Jude>  why
         <rindolf>  Jude: what is encouraging?
         <rindolf>  Jude: I mean that some television producers are having
                    a clue about piracy.
         <rindolf>  Jude: I think the MPAA is likely going to follow the
                    lead of the RIAA and endorse the Internet.
         <rindolf>  Jude: well, there's still a long way to go with even
                    music online.
      <cheeseduck>  rindolf: "How to win friends and..."
         <rindolf>  cheeseduck: ah, that. MAking slow progress in it.
         <rindolf>  cheeseduck: I thought it was a book *I* was writing.
         <rindolf>  Lately, I've been writing books and screenplays and
                    stuff more than I've been reading them. :-D
      <cheeseduck>  "I've been reading a lot of scripts lately." "You
                    know, it's cheaper than going to the movies."
         <rindolf>  cheeseduck: heh.
         <rindolf>  cheeseduck: some people find the screenplays funny as
                    they are.
         <rindolf>  cheeseduck: they have good imagination.
      <cheeseduck>  I always found the standard they are supposed to be
                    written in weird.
      <cheeseduck>  Kind of wasteful in space.
         <rindolf>  cheeseduck: for other people, it ruins the experience.
         <rindolf>  cheeseduck: yes, maybe.
            <Jude>  I see rindolf, did you catch the walking dead's
                    finale?
         <rindolf>  cheeseduck: I have something of my own -
                    http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/projects/XML-Grammar/Fiction/
         <rindolf>  Jude: not familiar with "Walking Dead".
         <rindolf>  Jude: horror drama - I have a soft stomach.
         <rindolf>  Jude: I prefer humour or drama/humour or sci-fi/humour
                    or sci-fi/humour/drama or stuff like that.
            <Jude>  k, sorry to have bothered you
         <rindolf>  Jude: I watched three episodes of My Little Pony:
                    Friendship Is Magic, and so far - I'm game.
         <rindolf>  Jude: you did not bother me.
            <Jude>  never seen it
         <rindolf>  Jude: do you watch My Little Pony?
         <rindolf>  Jude: ah, I love it so far.
            <Jude>  heard it can get quite rough
            <Jude>  more nudity and violence than spartacus and game of
                    thrones combined
         <rindolf>  One episode involved a lot of songs, which I disliked.
         <rindolf>  Jude: heh, LOL.
         <rindolf>  Jude++
         <rindolf>  Jude: it's directed at little girls.
         <rindolf>  Jude: so it's a pretty clean show.
            <Jude>  yeah I know
            <Jude>  I was kidding
         <rindolf>  Jude: if you want incest and violence, then look no
                    further than the Jewish bible.
            <Jude>  there are a lot of dubbing sections of the show to go
                    with metal songs or violent scripts etc
            <Jude>  rindolf, I'm jewish
         <rindolf>  Jude: reportedly, it was quite realism then (the Bible
                    I mean).
         <rindolf>  Jude: ah, nice. So am I.
            <Jude>  and I couldn't agree more
            <Jude>  I have to go watch game of thrones
         <rindolf>  Jude: yes, you need to process the Bible a lot to get
                    to the good stuff.
            <Jude>  will talk to you in an hour
         <rindolf>  Jude: enjoy.
            <Jude>  yeah, in Israel we have to take bible classes
            <Jude>  in high school
         <rindolf>  Maybe I'll prepare a fortune out of this conversation.
            <Jude>  and elementary school too
         <rindolf>  Jude: I'm Israeli too.
            <Jude>  really?
         <rindolf>  Jude: I live in Tel Aviv.
            <Jude>  where do you teach
         <rindolf>  Jude: yes.
            <Jude>  me too..
         <rindolf>  Jude: I don't teach.
            <Jude>  don't tell me you live near rabin sq.
         <rindolf>  Jude: well, I teach stuff via blogging and Internet
                    writing.
         <rindolf>  Jude: no, but I go there often.
         <rindolf>  Jude: I live in Gimmel.
            <Jude>  ramat aviv?
         <rindolf>  Jude: yes.
            <Jude>  that's close to TAU
            <Jude>  do you study there?
         <rindolf>  Jude: yes.
            <Jude>  CS?
         <rindolf>  Jude: no, I just live with my parents.
         <rindolf>  Jude: I graduated from EE from the Technion.
            <Jude>  cool
         <rindolf>  Jude:
                    http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/computers/education/opinion-on-the-technion/
            <Jude>  that's your blog?
         <rindolf>  Jude: it's my home site.
            <Jude>  cool
         <rindolf>  Jude: a good old fashioned Web 1.0 site in modern
                    clothing.
         <rindolf>  Like valid HTML, modern CSS, some JS enhancements,
                    etc.
         <rindolf>  But still static HTML pages.
         <rindolf>  I have some blogs on livejournal.com/etc.
            <Jude>  do you know a guy called nimrod?
         <rindolf>  Jude: there are many people called Nimrod - it's a
                    common name.
            <Jude>  don't want to give him in on public chat
         <rindolf>  Jude: not sure I know a Nimrod off hand.
            <Jude>  nevermind then
         <rindolf>  Jude: OK, feel free to PM.
         <rindolf>  Jude: many Israeli names can get confusing.
         <rindolf>  OK.
         <rindolf>  Jude: I can easily come to Rabin sq. - there's a bus
                    there from here.
            <Jude>  he's my brother, he lives close to you and he's also
                    an open-source enthusaist
            <Jude>  I know
            <Jude>  there are plenty of them
         <rindolf>  Jude: ah, that's great.
            <Jude>  I take them to uni on a daily basis
            <Jude>  I live right by rabin sq.
         <rindolf>  Jude: so you study in TAU?
            <Jude>  yeah
         <rindolf>  Jude: TAU has tons of hot chicks.
            <Jude>  there are some
         <rindolf>  Jude: there aren't a lot of people on the streets of
                    Gimmel.
         <rindolf>  Jude: so you study CS?
            <Jude>  no way
            <Jude>  maths
         <rindolf>  Jude: ah, I see.
         <rindolf>  Jude: maths...
            <Jude>  I know one or two nice looking girls, but I usually
                    get put off by their personalities
         <rindolf>  Jude: I think maths is taught wrong in several
                    aspects.
         <rindolf>  Jude: ah.
            <Jude>  I've only been attracted to one specimen of the female
                    sex ever
            <Jude>  in my entire life
         <rindolf>  Jude: ah, really?
            <Jude>  I dunno, I agree when you speak of highschool maths
            <Jude>  I like university maths so far
            <Jude>  my professors are really nice
         <rindolf>  Jude: well, there are a lot of girls studying more
                    humane stuff.
         <rindolf>  Jude:
                    http://blogs.perl.org/users/shlomi_fish/2013/03/ann-my-transition-from-software-developer-to-writerentertaineramateur-philosopherinternet-celebrity.html
            <Jude>  I generally don't like people who study humane
                    subjects (I don't consider philosophy to be as such
                    though)
         <rindolf>  Jude: I've made a transition from a mathematician to a
                    software developer and now I'm more of a
                    writer/entertainer/amateur-philosopher.
            <Jude>  you didn't like the way it was taught?
         <rindolf>  Jude: like which way?
         <rindolf>  Jude: you mean maths?
            <Jude>  yes
         <rindolf>  Jude: well: 1. No pairwise work. Big mistake.
         <rindolf>  2. Need to memorise a lot of silly stuff. Why??
         <rindolf>  3. Maybe allow some sloppiness. Make maths more
                    humane.
            <Jude>  that's why you got philosophy
            <Jude>  maths can't afford to be sloppy
         <rindolf>  There's something poetical about many maths' proofs.
            <Jude>  the intuitive ideas behind them
            <Jude>  are beautiful
            <Jude>  but intuition can be misleading
            <Jude>  that's why you have to be really strict
         <rindolf>  Jude: yes, that's why I think we should now move into
                    proof verifier realm.
            <Jude>  if you want your proof to be valid
         <rindolf>  Jude: right.
         <rindolf>  Jude: but I was once criticised for this -
                    http://ladypine.livejournal.com/24574.html
         <rindolf>  Jude: thing is - not everything should be strict when
                    teaching.
         <rindolf>  Jude: I agree that mathematical intuition can be
                    misleading, but it's still a good thing to have.
         <rindolf>  Jude: thing is I think many mathematicians now require
                    a lot of dedication and selling their soul to the
                    devil, which is turning them into
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Nemo -s.
            <Jude>  it's not a very formal proof
         <rindolf>  Jude: when I studied EE most of my courses were with
                    open material, and I could do pairwise work, which I
                    enjoyed.
            <Jude>  but seems to hold
         <rindolf>  Jude: yes.
            <Jude>  I guess you are right
         <rindolf>  Jude: :-D
            <Jude>  that the concept is more important than the
                    formalization
            <Jude>  but a lot of my professors agree with you
            <Jude>  and would give much more attention to grasping the
                    important concept, and understanding intuition behind
                    proofs
         <rindolf>  Jude: I'm always right. Unless I claim that "A is
                    not-A". But Chuck Norris would be right even then.
            <Jude>  lol
         <rindolf>  Hah! A new Chuck Norris factoid.
            <Jude>  <3
            <Jude>  it's been nice chatting with you, I really have to go
                    now, I need to watch GoT and then go to bed and wake
                    up in 4 hours
         <rindolf>  Jude: my father and I now have an ongoing Chuck Norris
                    meme.
         <rindolf>  Jude: bye, have fun, and good night.
            <Jude>  rindolf, what's that
         <rindolf>  Jude: what?
            <Jude>  the Chuck Norris meme
         <rindolf>  Jude: well, we say stuff like "you're my most Chuck
                    Norris dad." or "I taught Chuck Norris how to fight."
         <rindolf>  It's a personal running joke.
         <rindolf>  Well, a family-wide one.
         <rindolf>  We have our own jargon.
            <Jude>  heh
         <rindolf>  Most families do.
            <Jude>  I'm not close enough to any member of my family
            <Jude>  to do that
         <rindolf>  Ah.
            <Jude>  talk to you later, ciao
         <rindolf>  Bye.
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  rindolf: Douglas Hofstadter gave a talk about how
                    mathematicians aren't as rigorous as they claim to be
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  and that they use a lot of analogical thinking
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: ah, OK.
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  it was at the university of Toronto
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  I missed it sadly though
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: ah.
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: was it filmed?
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  but I can basically tell you what he said more or less
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  rindolf: there was a webcast
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: OK.
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: ah.
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  not sure if it can be accessed still
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: ah.
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  <+Nisstyre-laptop> but if you read either GEB or I Am
                    a Strange Loop you'll get it
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: I read GEB.
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: GEB was a nice book, but I knew a lot
                    of what he was saying there.
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: I still enjoyed the drama stuff in
                    the middle with Achilles, the Tortoise and their
                    friends.
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  rindolf: you had the idea of using PM as a metaphor
                    for systems of thinking and the mind?
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  because that's what the book is about
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: PM?
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  principia mathematica
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  the formal system constructed by Russell and Whitehead
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: I didn't think of it.
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: yes, I know.
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  the entire book is his theory of consciousness
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  and how there are levels of thinking
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: well, I read "I think, therefore I
                    laugh" before I read GEB.
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  you can be less of a thinking being, etc...
         <rindolf>  Yes, he says that consciousness requires thinking in
                    loops, or self-reflection.
         <rindolf>  Well, it's an informal theory of consciousness.
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  it requires what he calls a strange loop
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  and there can be many levels to it
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  more levels == what we think of as more human or more
                    conscious beings
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  so PM actually is able to self reflect to an extent
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  although it requires a human to interpret it
         <rindolf>  I believe, that creating artificial
                    intelligence/artificial consciousness won't be easy to
                    do, will require a lot of complex code, and will
                    likely be faulty (have its own will, make mistakes,
                    not run as quickly as more specialised code, etc.).
         <rindolf>  Nisstyre-laptop: yes.
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  depends what you mean by AI
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  there are several different definitions
           <gde33>  the first human like robot will be build in japan, the
                    first artifical intelligence in the us
        <doomlord>  heh
           <gde33>  hahaha
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  the church-turing hypothesis would seem to imply it's
                    possible, at least in principle
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  to create "strong" AI
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  although I intensely dislike that term
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  since it tries to say that any system of thinking that
                    doesn't work exactly the same as a human one isn't AI
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  which is BS
           <gde33>  you guys are all worried about intelligence, I think
                    that will be the easy part. Then comes the important
                    stuff: giving it a sense of humor.
        <doomlord>  so there was the idea that consciousness is associated
                    with information flow, and that "more" information
                    flow is "More" consciousness, a continuum like
                    gravity... but gravity can produce a qualitatively
                    different effect past a certain level (black holes..)
        <doomlord>  so the "loop" is where information flow becomes
                    qualitatively different ?
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  doomlord: have you read GEB?
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  it would be the ability a system has to observe
                    itself, and encode the system itself in the system
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  in otherwords self reflection
           <gde33>  I don't know many people who can be truly accused of
                    having their own thoughts
        <doomlord>  i dont thinkso but i have some related quotes from
                    somewhere
        <doomlord>  but can a system only approximate itself
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  principia mathematica has that ability
        <doomlord>  can a computer emulate itself...
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  as Goedel showed
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  you can encode formulas in PM as formulas in PM
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  doomlord: yes
        <doomlord>  but to what practical extent
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  what is that supposed to mean?
        <doomlord>  nature has many 'feedback loops' involving information
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  physical limitations result in a hard limit of
                    feedback loops
        <doomlord>  whats GEB, links?
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  if you point a camera at a mirror eventually it will
                    "stop"
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  doomlord: it's a book
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  Godel, Escher, Bach
        <doomlord>  ah google reveals
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  but the sequel is more clear on what it's about
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  I Am A Strange Loop
        <doomlord>  ok sounds interestign
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  doomlord: anyway, if you nest implementations of a
                    computer in a computer eventually there will be a
                    limit imposed by the physical situation
 <Nisstyre-laptop>  i.e. the memory and processor speed
           <gde33>  only for limited thinkers
           <gde33>  it's like entropy, only for people who are afraid to
                    think :P
        <doomlord>  but dont physical systems also have practical
                    limitations
           <gde33>  yes but those are not what we imagine them to be
           <gde33>  if only we knew the meaning of life, that would make
                    things so much easier
        <Stryyker>  how?
         <rindolf>  I think the whole "AIs spawning AIs" dream is not a
                    good strategy for doing software dev. I think
                    programming is here to stay. It's not like humans can
                    efficiently do what a dedicated polynomial time
                    program can.
        <doomlord>  even humans get programmed, lol
         <rindolf>  doomlord: yes.
           <gde33>  that new immortality project had some interesting
                    videos
         <rindolf>  doomlord: a large part of human technology is mental.
         <rindolf>  doomlord: in fact, we can no longer survive without
                    our mental technology. We couldn't for thousands of
                    years.
           <gde33>  oh but we can
           <gde33>  just need a favorable environment
        <doomlord>  cultural template = human OS
           <gde33>  not mine
         <rindolf>  gde33: you can survive without your mental technology?
                    Even without conceptual thought?
           <gde33>  not sure what you mean
           <gde33>  isn't that what all the other species do?
        <doomlord>  i saw some TED talk trying to explain the difference
                    between chinese and western spending/saving habits in
                    the way the language encourages people to think about
                    time
        <doomlord>  supposedly chinese language makes it harder to think
                    of past,present,future seperately
           <gde33>  languages can be really weird
           <gde33>  all languages have the word "argument" but some want
                    it to have aditional meanings, I believe in china an
                    argument is equal to disobedience. lol
      <Belxjander>  huh?
           <gde33>  in english it is a kind of fight
           <gde33>  争 is a dispute 争论 is an argument or debate
           <gde33>  I cant think of good examples, I used to know a girl
                    who knew many languages
           <gde33>  she showed me how some things are badly broken in some
                    languages
        <doomlord>  is it true japanese can't say "no", they have to
                    repeat the question in negative..
        <doomlord>  thats what we were told when learning but they must
                    have a word for no surely
      <Belxjander>  doomlord: there is "Hai" for Yes and "iie" for no
        <doomlord>  so its just impolite to say "no" i guess
                 *  Belxjander is living in Japan
      <Belxjander>  doomlord: you lose context...
      <Belxjander>  doomlord: in English you don't repeat
           <gde33>  hah no
      <Belxjander>  but in Japanese you do
      <Belxjander>  gde33: depends on the person... my mother and father
                    thought nothing of explaining politeness to me and
                    will happilly talk overtop me when I am speaking
         <rindolf>  gde33: I only know (Modern) Hebrew, English, some
                    mostly forgotten Written Arabic, and some French
                    (which I'm now trying to regain).
      <Belxjander>  I have also run into the same from Chinese, Japanese,
                    American, European AND African people I have met
         <rindolf>  gde33: well, I also know bits of other languages like
                    Spanish, Russian, German, etc.
         <rindolf>  gde33: I know that in Hebrew we have compulsive
                    genders for objects, so we don't care about phrasing
                    sentences in a gender-neutral form, which is an
                    English obsession.
         <rindolf>  gde33: I think it is parodied in this book -
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinny_Legs_and_All_%28novel%29
                    (great one, BTW - taught me a lot).
        <doomlord>  heh languages with sexism built in.. gender all the
                    way through
           <gde33>  some languages are also more emotional than others
           <gde33>  italians are hilarious
           <gde33>  so much enthusiasm it makes you think something is
                    going on
      <Belxjander>  gde33: spoken or written and the correct manner for if
                    you are addressing "up/peer/down" the social ladder
                    with regards respect... yes
           <gde33>  Belxjander: does that apply to many words?

    -- ##programming, Freenode
