German as he is spoke - Fortune

German as he is spoke

rindolf 36 files changed, 160 insertions(+), 1118 deletions(-) ==> a very productive night
bavi nice
bavi tighten it up?
rindolf i'd like to club my old self who just copy pasted and modified CSS code
bavi ha
bavi "let's just say I got rid of A LOT of extraneous whitespace"
bavi ;)
rindolf bavi: heh
rindolf bavi: i can probably save even more lines by converting the Contents.pm files to YAML
hio Why do people use Rust? Is it a form of stockholm syndrome?
hio I mean, any child could see that this language is overcomplicated
hio Yet they act like it's all fine
rindolf hio: i feel that ponylang is more complicated than rust
hio ponylang has a GC, how can it be more complicated
hio just the weirdo decision from the Rust team to wrap lambda arguments with | args | is crazy
hio they did that just to make parsing easier. Can you imagine? Wow
rindolf hio: well, admitedly i didnt study rust too closely
rindolf hio: ruby has that too
hio They actually thought that making their parsing job slightly easier justifies making the language weirder and introducing new syntax that doesnt resemble function calls at all even though lambdas are basically exactly like functions
rindolf hio: this night I reduced my codebase by close to a 1,000 lines
hio thats great bro, you should start a facebook blog
rindolf hio: i have a facebook and stuff
hio I'm talking about really important issues
rindolf hio: my latest tweet sparked some interest there
rindolf hio: you are obsessed w discussing various languages
hio I have hopes for both ziglang and jailang. Odin seems okay too but it's really hard to keep track of a language that resides only in youtube videos
hio rindolf, bad languages are the reason why software sucks so much
hio literally if we only get one good language, everything else will be fixed within a matter of months to years
rindolf hio: a lot of software apps i use are ok
hio people are so thirsty for better languages, they jumped on Rust and Golang like crazy
hio can you imagine? it just shows how bad we have it
tttb hi
rindolf tttb: hi, sup?
hio jailang will be released this year, are you ready yet rindolf ?
tttb rindolf: i want my interface in java to have attributes but they can't
rindolf hio: should i be?
rindolf tttb: ah
tttb should i use an abstract class
tttb or should i just give each concrete class the attributes and use an interface?
rindolf tttb: you can also define accessors
tttb i know, i'll use an abstract class for the attributes and an interface for the methods
hio rindolf, what do you think? dont you want 0.2 sec compile times?
tttb or is that dumb
hio 0.2 sec to compile an application that has c++ features and c++ speed is incredible
hio you should switch to it as soon as it's available
bavi https://www.xkcd.com/303/ :D
rindolf hio: sounds good - what will its licence be?
rindolf bavi: :)
rindolf bavi: i broke the travis build though :(
bavi rindolf: oh no!
bavi as soon as I got a passing build i disabled travis for that repo ;)
rindolf bavi: i suspect it is because i didnt install uglify-es
rindolf bavi: my projects are becoming chimeras
hio rindolf, MIT
hio ur welcome
hio what language are you using now?
rindolf perl, python, c, cmake, c++, website meta lang, javascript, ruby, gnu make, and more
rindolf hio: i use more than one
hio half of those are bad
hio why use perl, ruby, make? dude
rindolf hio: they are ok
hio i just said that they arent okay at all
rindolf hio: that was to bavi btw
rindolf hio: you are entitled to my opinion
tttb can someone please explain what the point of an interface is when an abstract class provides all its functionality?
tttb in java
rindolf hio: one reason is that i have a lot of legacy perl code and it needs to be maintained
rindolf tttb: you can inherit from more than one interface
hio just rewrite ur perl
hio wait until jailang is released though
tttb ok
rindolf hio: heh
bavi i read the first few chapeters of the gnu make manual the other day, i like how it's written
rindolf hio: i will rewrite all my perl code into $FASHION_LANGUAGE by hiring Chuck Norris, who will complete it in an hour and charge me 10,000,000 USD
rindolf bavi: :)
rindolf bavi: gmake now integrated guile scheme
Era_Scarecrow I didn't know chuck norris could code... i figured he'd just punch the computer and it would give him what he wanted...
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: the computer just does what he wants
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: by pure intimidation
rindolf hio: i like the mit licence
rindolf it is my go to licence for my own projects
usr123 rindolf: Hello. Could you please take a look at my code?
rindolf usr123: it seems fine, but u may have off-by-one errors
Era_Scarecrow rindolf & usr123> I'd have looked at it, but i don't use python, so i don't know.
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: python is easy
Era_Scarecrow perhaps, i'm not familiar with it, although it would mostly be syntax i'd have to get familiar with.
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: someone once told me he was able to look at python code and immmediately be able to tweak it without knowing it
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: i think he already knew perl 5, though
FriesAndSriracha Any reason to use fish over zsh?
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: i am still using bash
Era_Scarecrow ditto, i also use bash... Depends on if there's a specific feature you need or not.
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: i found zsh too incompatible w bash
usr123 rindolf: Well in that case, I'm just returning if today is 7 and food is less or else Im returning the first ele of the array. even if it iterates one more or less would it affect the output?
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: I am still on Bash as well, I just wanna follow the bandwagon ;)
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ah
FriesAndSriracha bandwagon == coolKids
Era_Scarecrow Fries> why would you want to jump on a bandwagon? I don't see the point...
FriesAndSriracha So that's why I was wondering if anyone here has used both fish and zsh and which one is better
FriesAndSriracha Or the pros and cons of both
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: also, what you mean by incompatible with bash?
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: csh is the bestest! http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/anti/csh/
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: i think $var does not expand words by default
SigSegOwl good morning everybody :)
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: the only thing better than csh is CMD.EXE
FriesAndSriracha I guess there's plugins for that
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: j/k
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: there is an option
rindolf SigSegOwl: hoooooo
usr123 unable to ask questions on their forum as well. Seems like I don't have enough points. This is bad
FriesAndSriracha I mean zsh seems to have a way bigger community than fish
usr123 is there a competitive programming channel on freenode?
SigSegOwl why do hdmi to dvi cables only work one way ?
SigSegOwl or even hdmi to displayport o.O ?
rindolf SigSegOwl: physics possibly
FriesAndSriracha Csh :P
SigSegOwl let me ask it a little bit differently... why can't i connect a screen that has vga, dvi, dp to a pc that only has hdmi xD
Era_Scarecrow SigSegOwl> Use a hammer... it will fit...
SigSegOwl Era_Scarecrow: hammer the screen or the pc ?
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: i am reminded of this too - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=more-advanced-than-CVS
Era_Scarecrow SigSegOwl> Hammer the connection into one of your ports... so... sorta them all
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: heh
Era_Scarecrow http://rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_abuse.shtml
FriesAndSriracha Is there any CLI centric channel on Freenode?
Era_Scarecrow try joining #bash?
FriesAndSriracha That's pretty counterproductive ;)
Era_Scarecrow Although if you go to one of the linux rooms they might be helpful
FriesAndSriracha Considering I am trying to move away from Bash
SigSegOwl so there is no way to connect dvi or dp to hdmi ?
FriesAndSriracha Ask in ##hardware ?
Era_Scarecrow SigSegOwl> Without a converter, probably not...
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: heh, funny link
Era_Scarecrow rindolf> Go back one level and there's ALL TYPES of topics.. programming, hardware, scammers... techno mumbo jumbo no one else understands :P
usr123 Is there a competitive programming channel on freenode?
rindolf usr123: you can discuss it here
Era_Scarecrow usr123> Hmmm maybe... Can't get more competitive than say CRobots though
rindolf usr123: problem is there are many CP sites
SigSegOwl see ya later then :D heading to work...
rindolf SigSegOwl: hooooo
usr123 Well. I did post my code. I just can't figure out the corner case I might be missing.
l2y usr123: try #algorithms
usr123 l2y: Thanks. on it
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: ah
Era_Scarecrow I don't know what channels there are, because when i go to look over the list of channelse or search through them.... there's so many and my client isn't very good at searching channel lists, so hope you have the exact title of something...
l2y Era_Scarecrow: this is easy. you just google "irc <yourtopic>", then find the first crawler, look at the number of members, and if it's legit, join
Era_Scarecrow l2y> Maybe. I've also just joined rooms to see if they are empty or not :P
Era_Scarecrow Here it's midnight... i should sleep soon
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: i stayed up all night refactoring old CSS stylesheets
Era_Scarecrow fun...
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: i ended up reducing the codebase by close to a thousand lines
FriesAndSriracha Sass!
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: no sass yet
Era_Scarecrow fun fun. I got a script for reducing the size of a differential data backup up and running
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: i just consolidated the CSS directives
FriesAndSriracha Sass changes lives :)
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: great
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: i like sass
Era_Scarecrow yeah... the big pain in the butt was trying to get diff and patch to work on potentially differing newline types, without it replacing whole files just because it was \n instead of \r\n lines or whatever
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ah, are you a fan of the sriracha sauce?
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: sure am ;)
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ah , i like it too
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: i see
FriesAndSriracha Mostly because if that Garlic
FriesAndSriracha *of
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: i use individual tarballs for backups
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: i have a 1 tb ext hard disk
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: and i exclude various large dirs that i dont need backed up
Era_Scarecrow mhmm... i have a backup script that runs every 6 hours taking files newer than my last backup and saving it, means the files are about 3Mb per backup per day. then when i get around to plugging in my other drive, just copy the backups and i'm golden.
rindolf Era_Scarecrow: ah
Era_Scarecrow but when i run my script, i can remove unnecessary inclusions cutting the size down to something like 100k, and then with diff/patch, down to 60k per day
FriesAndSriracha Well you can use rsync
bavi gah... i was talking down the dark hallway and accidentally kicked/stepped-on the cat and one of her incisors went right into my heel
bavi s/talking/walking :)
rindolf bavi: :(
FriesAndSriracha And that's why folks use your phone's LED
Era_Scarecrow Fries> Not sure how i'd use it, as this is the only running computer in the house right now...
bavi she is fine though :)
rindolf bavi: ah
SlashLife^work bavi: Ohhh, the ways in which cats can educate us about their ways ... =)
FriesAndSriracha Era_Scarecrow: oh
bavi now she has the zoomies
rindolf bavi: you should have got a flourescentic cat
SlashLife^work I'll totally get cats again when I have kids. *pull* - "Don't pull its tail!" - *pull* - "DON'T PULL ITS TAIL!" - *pull* -- *claw* -- *cry* - "I told you not to pull its tail!"
bavi hah
FriesAndSriracha http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cat_kill
rindolf bavi: there was this manx kitten who was born with metallic green fur
SlashLife^work rindolf: Heh. We had a cafe across a place I used to work to. They had a waitress who brought her big black dog in (looked like a golden retriever, except it was pitch black; are there pitch-black retrievers?) ... I suggested she could dye some flourescent racing stripes into its fur. :D
rindolf bavi: i saw a photo of him in the newspaper
SlashLife^work FriesAndSriracha: I actually still have to read that book. :S
hio rindolf, what is a MUST HAVE feature for a programming language?
bavi rindolf: that's cool :)
FriesAndSriracha SlashLife^work: same situation here ;)
bavi integers
hio i personally really enjoy the automatic typing in typescript where a struct automatically gets a type if it fits the interface. I think it's called duck typing but not entirely sure
SlashLife^work FriesAndSriracha: Also have it lying around already? x)
hio i mean it makes perfect sense, if some data structure has the exact same fields as an interface that i defined then just let it have that type immediately
hio it's not duck typing because you still have to cast in Typescript
rindolf hio: see http://shlomif-tech.livejournal.com/57811.html
FriesAndSriracha Any point in learning Golang now?
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: to hack on golang projects
hio rindolf, i dont subscribe to this middle of the road crap "everything sux, get over it" attitude. There is right and wrong in the world, period
hio "You are damned either way, whatever you do." <-- very stupid attitude to have
SlashLife^work hio: And C++ is on the right side ... mostly. :D
hio c++ is just about the worst possible language that can exist
Era_Scarecrow My current languages of choice, include AHK and D...
hio hit me with some new and exciting c++ features, I'm sure they are ridiculously complex and useless
FriesAndSriracha Google is a LLC now?
SlashLife^work hio: I need a toolbox that gets the job done, not a crate full of useless, but exciting, gimmicks.
rindolf hio: what is better: English, Hebrew, French, German, Arabic, Spanish, Swahili, Japanese, Mandarin, ...
hio German
SlashLife^work I'll take a screwdriver over a fidget spinner every day.
FriesAndSriracha Also another language I've been hearing about is Haskell
hio Haskell is a toy language, people only use it when they want to appear smart
FriesAndSriracha Can we do server side coding with it?
SlashLife^work FriesAndSriracha: You can do server side coding with almost every language.
SlashLife^work FriesAndSriracha: If it can do console I/O on any modern OS, it can do server side web.
FriesAndSriracha SlashLife^work: I know that but is it a popular or niche thing , that's the question
SlashLife^work FriesAndSriracha: Look up CGI. :D
SlashLife^work FriesAndSriracha: I know people who use Haskell for web.
hio i mean look at this thing in c++: "auto glambda = [](auto a, auto&& b) { return a < b; };".. what's with the random array []? What is the array here???
rindolf hio: we are not talking in German, are we?
SlashLife^work I don't think they based their whole server side stack on it, though ... but I actually don't know.
hio rindolf, we dont live in a perfect world, do we?
SlashLife^work hio: It's not an array. It's an empty capture.
rindolf hio: no.
hio great that we worked that out
FriesAndSriracha So this means there's no big projects using Haskell?
SlashLife^work hio: So you're complaining that [] can have three different meanings?
hio yes
SlashLife^work hio: Good luck with () then.
hio () only has one meaning
SlashLife^work It does?
hio yes, it means group up
rindolf hio: German has three genders, and some inanimate objects are male or female - like wtf?
SlashLife^work int x = foo(); double y = (2.0/3.0); int z = (int)y; ... I was thinking of at least one more a moment ago.
FriesAndSriracha Sorry guys, I was just a web developer, took a long break and now trying to get into coding again
hio it still all means "group up".
hio even the cast
rindolf hio: and a damsel is neuter
SlashLife^work hio: BS
SlashLife^work hio: Oh, the [] always means "index"
hio it never means that wow
hio int[10] does not mean index
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: what do you wish to do?
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: mostly to learn some kinda language
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ah
FriesAndSriracha I know, HTML and CSS, and shell scripting
SlashLife^work Either that something can have indices (void foo(int[])), or that something *has* indices (int arr[32]), or that you want to access an index (int x = arr[3]), or which indices from the current scope you want to capture (auto lambda = [arr,&x](){ x = *arr; })
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ah
FriesAndSriracha And can use git
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ah.
FriesAndSriracha But that's about it it her than by basic understanding of JavaScript
xqb hi helloz
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: can you write fizz buzz?
hio ok SlashLife^work, so it "accesses" variables inside the current scope as if the scope is an array. That's a complex way of seeing it but fine
rindolf xqb: mew
FriesAndSriracha s/her/other
xqb bsd bsd bsd irc irc bsd
* xqb shoos rindolf
xqb dem cats
rindolf xqb: cats are damn cute
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: oh Tom Scott made a video about it
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: about what?
FriesAndSriracha FizzBuzz I mean
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ah
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: see https://github.com/shlomif/Freenode-programming-channel-FAQ/blob/master/FAQ.mdwn#what-is-fizzbuzz
FriesAndSriracha Whose GitHub page is this?
FriesAndSriracha Lotsa nice info ;)
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: someone i tutored was able to solve fizz buzz after the first few lessons
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: i am shlomif on gh
FriesAndSriracha Oh nice :)
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: there were some other contributors to the faq
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: and it may be somewhat opinionated
FriesAndSriracha Thanks for this, I've been out of this whole things for so long
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: thanks
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: you're welcome
FriesAndSriracha I think getting into Python would be a good idea
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: i think so too
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: python is easy to learn
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: yep I am kinda stuck between what to learn tbh
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ah, i know that feeling
FriesAndSriracha People are suggesting Python, Ruby, Go...
vdamewood I vote for Python.
xqb hi etc
FriesAndSriracha and even JavaScript
vdamewood High? i am not!
FriesAndSriracha Node I mean
squirrel oops wrong chan
mozzarella I vote for ruby
xqb :) /me hi5s vdamewood
vdamewood FriesAndSriracha: What do you already know?
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: it reminds me of the philosophical dog that stands in equal distance between two identical piles of food and ends up starving to death
* rindolf puts mozzarella on FriesAndSriracha and eats them both
FriesAndSriracha I was a web developer, so no programming language, HTML, CASE, Shell scripting etc
vdamewood rindolf: share!
rindolf vdamewood: :)
vdamewood CASE? (Typo of CSS?)
FriesAndSriracha s/CASE/CSS
FriesAndSriracha vdamewood: autocorrect actually
xqb that's buridan donkey
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ah
vdamewood Hey look, someone who doesn't think HTML is a programming language.
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: I know how that dog feels ;)
xqb it is a donkey
rindolf vdamewood: writing HTML is kinda programming though
* vdamewood kicks the donkey.
vdamewood It's time to kick ass!
vdamewood rindolf: I don't believe it it as all.
xqb heh
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: :)
FriesAndSriracha Oh and basic Unix tools, and Git
FriesAndSriracha That's all I know
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: ok, then learn python
xqb +1 py
FriesAndSriracha Seems reasonable
vdamewood FriesAndSriracha: If you're looking for suggestions of real a real programming language to learn, go with Python. it has Django and Flask.
vdamewood I prefer Django.
rindolf and bottle
FriesAndSriracha But Ruby has Rails and Sinatra too ;)
vdamewood Ruby is also not Python.
vdamewood Which is a point against Ruby.
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: the ruby hype seems to have mostly passed away
vdamewood Though, Python, Ruby, and Java are all fine languages for beginners. Python is just slightly better.
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: I know people are hyping Golang now
vdamewood Everything else is terrible for beginners.
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: and rust
vdamewood Golang is also on my terrible-for-beginners list.
FriesAndSriracha And Kotlin maybe
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: and node.js
xqb when I was starting, I was looking up how the same program (was it hello world?) looks like in different languages
xqb I found C#'s syntax to be the most appealing to me
xqb so I went with C# :)
rindolf xqb: ok
vdamewood xqb: Probably. Hello world is fairly popular for language juxtaposition.
rindolf the first language is always the hardest to learn
FriesAndSriracha I can't really go with C#
xqb !fgoogle juxtaposition
FriesAndSriracha I doubt it runs on Linux
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: it does
xqb it does but not as expected
xqb Mono is crap
xqb and you can't do WPF
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: even .NET core from Microsoft
xqb and 100+ things
FriesAndSriracha Python it is then ;)
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: sure
vdamewood xqb: justa- next to/besides. juxtoposition: to position next to/beside; to compare by placing side by side.
l2y FriesAndSriracha: it runs on linux, and does so rather well as of today
vdamewood s/justa/juxta/
FriesAndSriracha l2y: I mostly wanna do Server site coding
xqb thanks :)
vdamewood Well, Juxtaposition means the act as a noun. The verb is juxtapose.
FriesAndSriracha s/site/side
FriesAndSriracha Thanks a lot rindolf again!
l2y FriesAndSriracha: ok, whatever. just proving you wrong, so that you don't doubt anymore
FriesAndSriracha Also thanks vdamewood
vdamewood Bah, I didn't so anything significant.
FriesAndSriracha l2y: oh I didn't know
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: you're welcome
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: I think you should also include Video tutorials in your Python resources
vdamewood I want to teach some stuff now.
* xqb 'd like to know what is unit testing and how do I start writing tests and what's a good read for testing
vdamewood xqb: Unit testing is when you write code that makes your other code works properly. For example, if you have a function called addtwo(x), you would write a functions like this: a = addtwo(3); if a == 5, return true; else return false;
xqb what's a unit in my code? a function/method?
xqb a .. line?
xqb what
vdamewood A separate program.
vdamewood Well, it could also be a function or collection of functions.
xqb I'm testing a separate program in my program?
xqb why don't I test my program directly?
mozzarella nigga
vdamewood You're not testing your program; you're testing parts (units) of your program.
mozzarella return a == 5
vdamewood If I really wanted to go that fare: return addtwo(3) == 5
vdamewood far*
mozzarella well you should
xqb assert addtwo(3) == 5
xqb and then I run pytest in the background
xqb and I've tested a unit?
vdamewood xqb: That might work, but it doesn't look like PyTest is specifically for Unit testing.
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: but great resources still, thanks
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: you're welcome
xqb I see
xqb is TDD (Kent Beck) a good book?
rindolf xqb: quite
rindolf xqb: most of it is redundant
xqb I know what you think rindolf, you're the one who recommended it :P
rindolf xqb: ah
PlanckWalk A "unit" is generally an internal API contract. Often a function or method.
xqb what's an API contract
rindolf xqb: i can recommend against a different one - https://mail.perl.org.il/pipermail/perl/2010-April/010909.html
rindolf mozzarella: yes
PlanckWalk A specification for how one part of a system can use another.
xqb I see
FriesAndSriracha Oh that reminds me of this site https://hackr.io/
vdamewood xqb: Many unit-testing frameworks follow the design of a Java unit-testing framework called JUnit. Though, this isn't strictly required, it sure does help organize things.
vdamewood xqb: https://docs.python.org/3/library/unittest.html
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: you can submit a pull-req for it
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: I have to find some good ones first though :)
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: you can put the link to the site for all langs
xqb vdamewood: I'll look at it, gtg, bbl, tyvm
vdamewood Laters
rindolf xqb: bye
Jasparon Hello friends:
rindolf Jasparon: meow
Jasparon Do programmers care about logic gates, or do I need to study EE/CE?
Jasparon rindolf: Long time no C
rindolf Jasparon: we do
Jasparon rindolf: Who is we?
brwr Jasparon: programmers who work with logic gates care about logic gates :)
FriesAndSriracha Gtg
rindolf Jasparon: there are bitwise and logical operators
Jasparon Uggggh....
rindolf FriesAndSriracha: bye
FriesAndSriracha rindolf: see ya
Jasparon Suppose I want to get into how logic gates design works (theory), and I one day want to build custom circuits.
rindolf Jasparon: i am a software dev who studied EE/CEish
Jasparon Should I get an intro electronics book; or an intro circuits book?
rindolf Jasparon: and graduated
Jasparon Ok sure
Jasparon :)
rindolf Jasparon: well, not sure i can call what i studied CE
Jasparon rindolf: Right.
brwr Jasparon: IME its better to find a project that interests you and start working on it
brwr YMMV
rindolf Jasparon: it is technically EE proper, but calling me an elec engineer would be a stretch
rts-sander IME?
brwr I find books helpful for things like design patterns and best practices, but not for code
Jasparon brwr: I know, but I want to learn how electronics work, and how computer electronics work
brwr rts-sander: in my experience
rindolf Jasparon: the technion is funny
Jasparon rindolf: Maybe you're just a electronics-comptent programmer?
rts-sander brwr: ah I see, I thought it was misspelled IMO
brwr Jasparon: +1
rindolf Jasparon: i am clueless around electronics
Jasparon brwr: Ok neat
Jasparon brwr: Well, would you reccommend I get: 1. Intro CE book. 2. Intro electronics. 3. Intro circuits? Which one?
rindolf Jasparon: they never showed us how to replace a lightbulb
rindolf Jasparon: wait a sec
Jasparon rindolf: 0, becuase it's a hardware issue
brwr Jasparon: i don’t know enough about electronics to make a recommendation. Sorry!
FMan morning
rindolf Jasparon: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/computation-structures - this book is nice
rindolf Jasparon: and there is also http://www.nand2tetris.org/
brwr IRC on mobile is sadface
brwr I get disconnected if I turn my screen off
rindolf Jasparon: i suggest you start from a high level prog lang
rindolf Jasparon: sth like python
rindolf Jasparon: how good is your math?
Jasparon rindolf: So, I know about formal logic enough to know things like De Morgen's, but I still need to take college algebra
Jasparon Thanks for the books
rindolf Jasparon: you're welcome
Jasparon rindolf: Here is a good question:
rindolf Jasparon: logic can get pretty complicated and impractical
Jasparon Really?
Jasparon What's a good place to build objects? I think main?
rindolf Jasparon: at least the one that is under active research
Jasparon What's under active research?
rindolf Jasparon: you can also build them int he methods of other objects
rindolf Jasparon: logic
Jasparon correct. I think it's "not good" to create objects in the instance-scope?
rindolf Jasparon: why not?
Jasparon rindolf: I tried constructing an instance of my class, in the instance-level in Java; stackoverflow
rindolf Jasparon: otherwise you'll have a cluttered main func
Jasparon Makes sense
rindolf Jasparon: ah
rindolf Jasparon: you need to limit your recursion
Jasparon rindolf: Right. But I was so confused because my constructor was empty.
rindolf Jasparon: or use iterative tree recursion with a dedicated stack
Jasparon Good idea
mvaenskae hm, low level detail quesiton on C's memory allocation; if i request 200MB of memory via malloc will that be virtual-addressed memory or real memory locations?
Jasparon rindolf: I should be going :)
rindolf Jasparon: where?
rindolf mvaenskae: hi
rindolf mvaenskae: it depends where the program is running\
Jasparon Heehee...
Jasparon GTG :)
mvaenskae rindolf: hm, in kernel mode it would then get the bare memory locations i take
rindolf mvaenskae: possibly
rindolf mvaenskae: kernel code does not have malloc() usually
* mvaenskae ponders on reworking the sorting algos to not work with explicit arrays but a struct of linked/doubly-linked lists...
rindolf mvaenskae: at least the linux kernel doesnt
mvaenskae hm, i could obviously adapt that to get the proper linux kernel function but it could still fail due to fragmentation in allocation a large enough section
rindolf mvaenskae: heh
mvaenskae but i just realized my approach doesn't scale to structs to pointers to the next element, only to arrays of structs
l2y mvaenskae: is your allocations are not enormous, kernel won't move a page from virtual memory to disk, and virtual memory provides constant time access, so, why bother?
l2y s/is/if/
rindolf mvaenskae: small optimisations can add up to a lot, but if your program can afford to be sub-optimally slower, then so be it
mvaenskae rindolf: i don't so much care for performance than for stability; people somewhat ok in C should be able to understand how I approached different sorting algos within the constraints of C in the most generic way and can use them for their own projects about as easily as importing my stuff
rindolf mvaenskae: see https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Optimizing_Code_for_Speed/Factor_Optimizations#Are_%22Small%22_Optimizations_Desirable?
rindolf mvaenskae: stability?
mvaenskae if it comes to just speed and i have a fixed interface i would have just commenced; i just realized my approach is not the most generic one
rindolf mvaenskae: if you want your program to behave then keep it out of the kernel
Rashad Morning
mvaenskae l2y: i was mostly thinking of the problems on fragmentation :)
mvaenskae rindolf: why keep it out of the kernel?
Rashad rindolf: sup?
rindolf mvaenskae: because code running in kernel land can do untold damage\
rindolf Rashad: i refactored some CSS stylesheets
rindolf Rashad: shaved a thousand lines
mvaenskae rindolf: well, it's the kernel :) i expect nothing less of the system than request a sacrifice to boot again if i break it ;)
Rashad rindolf: Do you use CSS normalization libraries?
Rashad rindolf: Wow!
Rashad Nice
rindolf Rashad: no
rts-sander whitespace lines? :)
rindolf Rashad: it is for my talks at http://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/
rindolf Rashad: the quad-pres ones
rindolf rts-sander: no
l2y mvaenskae: again, what can you do about it? nothing. malloc already allocates a contiguous block of memory, if you are in a kernel space, which you should never be in, you don't have malloc. you are provided with an interface and are bound to what the interface reveals about itself
Rashad rindolf: I don't know if you need this, but it's used by Twitter, Github and more: https://necolas.github.io/normalize.css/
rindolf Rashad: i had done a lot of copying and tweaking
mvaenskae l2y: i may to do kernel development ;) and i wanted to clarify the memory pages returned :) i assumed them to be VA but it's early in the morning and i wasn't fully awake to properly recall :)
Rashad Neat
rindolf Rashad: ah
rindolf Rashad: it was bad
Rashad I can imagine.
rindolf Rashad: i had to consolidate my directives
Rashad What directives?
rindolf Rashad: the css ones
Rashad You mean like :hover and stuff?
Rashad Not sure I know what css directives are.
Rashad The ones with the @?
mvaenskae right now only userland and there i have now been verified how malloc works :) my aim is trying to eventually be able to write C code that is as generic as possible
rindolf Rashad: see https://github.com/shlomif/shlomi-fish-homepage/commits/master
rindolf Rashad: no
rindolf Rashad: i mean regular rules like b { color: red; }
Rashad Ah.
Rashad That's a lot of commits :D
rindolf Rashad: yes
rindolf Rashad: the site dates back to 1997ish
Rashad Wow.
rindolf Rashad: but i used svn->hg->git for it relatively later
Rashad What's that?
rindolf Rashad: first i used svn
rindolf Rashad: then moved to hg
rindolf and finally git
Rashad Ah those are versioning systems?
rindolf Rashad: yes
Rashad I see I see.
rts-sander looks like you finally did git gud
rindolf rts-sander: the main reason why i switched it to github was travis-ci
rindolf rts-sander: well, and hg does not seem to become more popular
rts-sander never heard of hg
rindolf rts-sander: heh
rts-sander rindolf: but do you like git itself more than the other systems?
rindolf rts-sander: it isnt too bad, but has its share of quirks
rindolf rts-sander: not sure
rindolf rts-sander: i still kinda miss the simplicity of the svn model. i dont feel i understand git
velco Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
Rashad git is too complicated the only thing I use is push and pull
Rashad morning velco
rts-sander I've gotten decently proficient in git
vendu yo :)
rts-sander rindolf: do you also have experience with version control software in team settings or just solo projects?
velco git is love, git is life
rindolf rts-sander: also in teams
velco (that said, I was pretty happy with Mercurial too)
vendu rts-sander, i haven't :)
rts-sander svn broke more often than not when I tried it with other people
velco one does not have to understand git
rindolf rts-sander: git rebase can be a bitch too
velco one needs to know just enough of it, ib order to accommodate their workflow
rindolf velco: well, git threw me off quite a lot
rts-sander if you have a lot of conflicts yeah
rindolf velco: good thing there is #git here
rts-sander git is advanced but there's no simplicity layer
rts-sander users are thrown right into the deep
Rashad Yeah.
rindolf velco: https://xkcd.com/1597/
velco rindolf, without clicking it, I know what it is :D
rindolf velco: :)
velco but just clone/checkout/push/pull/branch/rebase are sufficient to 99.937% if what I need to happen
velco s/if/of/
velco cherry-pick too
rindolf velco: commit
velco haha, yeah
velco log
velco diff
* rindolf deletes velco 's git-commit script
rindolf welcome to hell
* velco restores git worktree from the backup
rindolf lets do a pull req on git's git to remove git-commit
rindolf velco: git bisect is also useful
rts-sander lol I actually did that when I was a git noob
merijn rts-sander: The simplicity layer of git is "Just use Mercurial"
rts-sander back then the team I worked with worked on Windows and we had problems with file name case sensitivity
rindolf merijn: hg threw me off too
merijn rindolf: How so?
rts-sander merijn: meh once you learn git it's good
rindolf merijn: dont remember
rindolf merijn: and i hate its heads misfeature
wwwwww is it generally correct to say that jump instructions modify the program counter the same way an add instruction might modify a normal register?
merijn rts-sander: Yeah, but why would I bother when I already knows Mercurial and it's so much simpler to learn? :)
rts-sander merijn: good point, there's no reason to learn something more complex when you already have something that works
rts-sander that's why I'm not going through the effort of learning Haskell :D
merijn I don't think git is even that much more complex than mercurial
rindolf rts-sander: heh
merijn It just has really shit UI/UX
rts-sander UI? heh I just use the cmd line
rindolf merijn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better perhaps
rindolf rts-sander: cmd line is ui too
merijn rts-sander: I'm referring to the cmd line
merijn UI is UI, graphical or not
loginoob Is it really true that to learn some language, try to build something that one have no idea how to start
loginoob in that language
rindolf loginoob: i never did that
rindolf loginoob: perhaps try to contribute to an existing codebase
rts-sander ah, I assumed UI = GUI
rts-sander yeah I agree it's confusing at times
rts-sander for example git checkout -- path, git checkout branchname, git checkout -b newbranch all do something completely different
rindolf rts-sander: also see http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=djb-on-cmd-interfaces
merijn rts-sander: I think this summaries it accurately: http://stevelosh.com/media/images/blog/2010/01/mercurial-vs-git.jpg
rindolf merijn: heh
loginoob git is easy until you fuck up
merijn loginoob: Then you just google and copy&paste cryptic lines from blogposts until either all your data is gone or it's fixed :p
rts-sander oh hg = mercurial lol
SlashLife^work GAHHH! OCD!! >_<"
loginoob true
merijn rts-sander: Because nobody wants to type a command as long as "mercurial" :p
loginoob merry: You are a haskeller right?
loginoob shit
SlashLife^work I have a directory, an archive and an executable, all by the name of "qt-" in subsequent lines on the same terminal. "ls" colored them blue, red and green respectively ...
loginoob merijn:
SlashLife^work ... which means they do not perfectly line up because they use different subpixels.
SlashLife^work ... which annoys the hell out of me.
merijn loginoob: I program in Haskell among other things, yes :p
SlashLife^work GAAAAAHHHH!!!!
SlashLife^work Cannot ... unsee ... ;_;
merijn SlashLife^work: Your life could be worse
rts-sander SlashLife^work: you could probably remove the colors from ls
jp env TERM=dumb ls
jp sight has been unseen
* vendu writes a bullshit generator for git commit comments =)
SlashLife^work merijn: Well, I guess it confirms my 20/10 vision.
* redstarcomrade has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
Jeremeh vendu: http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
SlashLife^work rts-sander: That won't help me now that I *know* they'd be offset when in color. :|
vendu bbs lunch :)
merijn SlashLife^work: Could have all your experimental results stored on a cluster fileshare with a deadline tomorrow only to realise the cluster is down for maintenance until late today >.>
SlashLife^work merijn: Yup. Maintenance is until Friday. And they moved the deadline from next Monday to yesterday.
SlashLife^work (On last Friday afternoon.)
SlashLife^work That would so be happening if I was still working at my previous job. >_>
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