| cheeseduck | rindolf: How long have you got on the book? |
| Jude | rindolf, did you check out the new game of thrones episode? |
| rindolf | Jude: no, I don't watch Game of Thrones. |
| rindolf | Jude: I did see this on Slashdot - http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/03/31/1347248/hbo-says-game-of-thrones-piracy-is-a-compliment . |
| rindolf | Jude: quite encouraging. |
| Jude | why |
| rindolf | Jude: what is encouraging? |
| rindolf | Jude: I mean that some television producers are having a clue about piracy. |
| rindolf | Jude: I think the MPAA is likely going to follow the lead of the RIAA and endorse the Internet. |
| rindolf | Jude: well, there's still a long way to go with even music online. |
| cheeseduck | rindolf: "How to win friends and..." |
| rindolf | cheeseduck: ah, that. Making slow progress in it. |
| rindolf | cheeseduck: I thought it was a book *I* was writing. |
| rindolf | Lately, I've been writing books and screenplays and stuff more than I've been reading them. :-D |
| cheeseduck | "I've been reading a lot of scripts lately." "You know, it's cheaper than going to the movies." |
| rindolf | cheeseduck: heh. |
| rindolf | cheeseduck: some people find the screenplays funny as they are. |
| rindolf | cheeseduck: they have good imagination. |
| cheeseduck | I always found the standard they are supposed to be written in weird. |
| cheeseduck | Kind of wasteful in space. |
| rindolf | cheeseduck: for other people, it ruins the experience. |
| rindolf | cheeseduck: yes, maybe. |
| Jude | I see rindolf, did you catch the walking dead's finale? |
| rindolf | cheeseduck: I have something of my own - http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/projects/XML-Grammar/Fiction/ |
| rindolf | Jude: not familiar with "Walking Dead". |
| rindolf | Jude: horror drama - I have a soft stomach. |
| rindolf | Jude: I prefer humour or drama/humour or sci-fi/humour or sci-fi/humour/drama or stuff like that. |
| Jude | k, sorry to have bothered you |
| rindolf | Jude: I watched three episodes of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, and so far - I'm game. |
| rindolf | Jude: you did not bother me. |
| Jude | never seen it |
| rindolf | Jude: do you watch My Little Pony? |
| rindolf | Jude: ah, I love it so far. |
| Jude | heard it can get quite rough |
| Jude | more nudity and violence than Spartacus and game of thrones combined |
| rindolf | One episode involved a lot of songs, which I disliked. |
| rindolf | Jude: heh, LOL. |
| rindolf | Jude++ |
| rindolf | Jude: it's directed at little girls. |
| rindolf | Jude: so it's a pretty clean show. |
| Jude | yeah I know |
| Jude | I was kidding |
| rindolf | Jude: if you want incest and violence, then look no further than the Jewish bible. |
| Jude | there are a lot of dubbing sections of the show to go with metal songs or violent scripts etc |
| Jude | rindolf, I'm jewish |
| rindolf | Jude: reportedly, it was quite realism then (the Bible I mean). |
| rindolf | Jude: ah, nice. So am I. |
| Jude | and I couldn't agree more |
| Jude | I have to go watch game of thrones |
| rindolf | Jude: yes, you need to process the Bible a lot to get to the good stuff. |
| Jude | will talk to you in an hour |
| rindolf | Jude: enjoy. |
| Jude | yeah, in Israel we have to take bible classes |
| Jude | in high school |
| rindolf | Maybe I'll prepare a fortune out of this conversation. |
| Jude | and elementary school too |
| rindolf | Jude: I'm Israeli too. |
| Jude | really? |
| rindolf | Jude: I live in Tel Aviv. |
| Jude | where do you teach |
| rindolf | Jude: yes. |
| Jude | me too.. |
| rindolf | Jude: I don't teach. |
| Jude | don't tell me you live near Rabin sq. |
| rindolf | Jude: well, I teach stuff via blogging and Internet writing. |
| rindolf | Jude: no, but I go there often. |
| rindolf | Jude: I live in Gimmel. |
| Jude | Ramat Aviv? |
| rindolf | Jude: yes. |
| Jude | that's close to TAU |
| Jude | do you study there? |
| rindolf | Jude: yes. |
| Jude | CS? |
| rindolf | Jude: no, I just live with my parents. |
| rindolf | Jude: I graduated from EE from the Technion. |
| Jude | cool |
| rindolf | Jude: http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/computers/education/opinion-on-the-technion/ |
| Jude | that's your blog? |
| rindolf | Jude: it's my home site. |
| Jude | cool |
| rindolf | Jude: a good old fashioned Web 1.0 site in modern clothing. |
| rindolf | Like valid HTML, modern CSS, some JS enhancements, etc. |
| rindolf | But still static HTML pages. |
| rindolf | I have some blogs on livejournal.com/etc. |
| Jude | do you know a guy called Nimrod? |
| rindolf | Jude: there are many people called Nimrod - it's a common name. |
| Jude | don't want to give him in on public chat |
| rindolf | Jude: not sure I know a Nimrod off hand. |
| Jude | never mind then |
| rindolf | Jude: OK, feel free to PM. |
| rindolf | Jude: many Israeli names can get confusing. |
| rindolf | OK. |
| rindolf | Jude: I can easily come to Rabin sq. - there's a bus there from here. |
| Jude | he's my brother, he lives close to you and he's also an open-source enthusiast |
| Jude | I know |
| Jude | there are plenty of them |
| rindolf | Jude: ah, that's great. |
| Jude | I take them to uni on a daily basis |
| Jude | I live right by Rabin sq. |
| rindolf | Jude: so you study in TAU? |
| Jude | yeah |
| rindolf | Jude: TAU has tons of hot chicks. |
| Jude | there are some |
| rindolf | Jude: there aren't a lot of people on the streets of Gimmel. |
| rindolf | Jude: so you study CS? |
| Jude | no way |
| Jude | maths |
| rindolf | Jude: ah, I see. |
| rindolf | Jude: maths... |
| Jude | I know one or two nice looking girls, but I usually get put off by their personalities |
| rindolf | Jude: I think maths is taught wrong in several aspects. |
| rindolf | Jude: ah. |
| Jude | I've only been attracted to one specimen of the female sex ever |
| Jude | in my entire life |
| rindolf | Jude: ah, really? |
| Jude | I dunno, I agree when you speak of high school maths |
| Jude | I like university maths so far |
| Jude | my professors are really nice |
| rindolf | Jude: well, there are a lot of girls studying more humane stuff. |
| rindolf | Jude: http://blogs.perl.org/users/shlomi_fish/2013/03/ann-my-transition-from-software-developer-to-writerentertaineramateur-philosopherinternet-celebrity.html |
| Jude | I generally don't like people who study humane subjects (I don't consider philosophy to be as such though) |
| rindolf | Jude: I've made a transition from a mathematician to a software developer and now I'm more of a writer/entertainer/amateur-philosopher. |
| Jude | you didn't like the way it was taught? |
| rindolf | Jude: like which way? |
| rindolf | Jude: you mean maths? |
| Jude | yes |
| rindolf | Jude: well: 1. No pairwise work. Big mistake. |
| rindolf | 2. Need to memorise a lot of silly stuff. Why?? |
| rindolf | 3. Maybe allow some sloppiness. Make maths more humane. |
| Jude | that's why you got philosophy |
| Jude | maths can't afford to be sloppy |
| rindolf | There's something poetical about many maths' proofs. |
| Jude | the intuitive ideas behind them |
| Jude | are beautiful |
| Jude | but intuition can be misleading |
| Jude | that's why you have to be really strict |
| rindolf | Jude: yes, that's why I think we should now move into proof verifier realm. |
| Jude | if you want your proof to be valid |
| rindolf | Jude: right. |
| rindolf | Jude: but I was once criticised for this - http://ladypine.livejournal.com/24574.html |
| rindolf | Jude: thing is - not everything should be strict when teaching. |
| rindolf | Jude: I agree that mathematical intuition can be misleading, but it's still a good thing to have. |
| rindolf | Jude: thing is I think many mathematicians now require a lot of dedication and selling their soul to the devil, which is turning them into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Nemo -s. |
| Jude | it's not a very formal proof |
| rindolf | Jude: when I studied EE most of my courses were with open material, and I could do pairwise work, which I enjoyed. |
| Jude | but seems to hold |
| rindolf | Jude: yes. |
| Jude | I guess you are right |
| rindolf | Jude: :-D |
| Jude | that the concept is more important than the formalization |
| Jude | but a lot of my professors agree with you |
| Jude | and would give much more attention to grasping the important concept, and understanding intuition behind proofs |
| rindolf | Jude: I'm always right. Unless I claim that "A is not-A". But Chuck Norris would be right even then. |
| Jude | lol |
| rindolf | Hah! A new Chuck Norris factoid. |
| Jude | <3 |
| Jude | it's been nice chatting with you, I really have to go now, I need to watch GoT and then go to bed and wake up in 4 hours |
| rindolf | Jude: my father and I now have an ongoing Chuck Norris meme. |
| rindolf | Jude: bye, have fun, and good night. |
| Jude | rindolf, what's that |
| rindolf | Jude: what? |
| Jude | the Chuck Norris meme |
| rindolf | Jude: well, we say stuff like "you're my most Chuck Norris dad." or "I taught Chuck Norris how to fight." |
| rindolf | It's a personal running joke. |
| rindolf | Well, a family-wide one. |
| rindolf | We have our own jargon. |
| Jude | heh |
| rindolf | Most families do. |
| Jude | I'm not close enough to any member of my family |
| Jude | to do that |
| rindolf | Ah. |
| Jude | talk to you later, ciao |
| rindolf | Bye. |
| Nisstyre-laptop | rindolf: Douglas Hofstadter gave a talk about how mathematicians aren't as rigorous as they claim to be |
| Nisstyre-laptop | and that they use a lot of analogical thinking |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: ah, OK. |
| Nisstyre-laptop | it was at the university of Toronto |
| Nisstyre-laptop | I missed it sadly though |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: ah. |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: was it filmed? |
| Nisstyre-laptop | but I can basically tell you what he said more or less |
| Nisstyre-laptop | rindolf: there was a webcast |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: OK. |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: ah. |
| Nisstyre-laptop | not sure if it can be accessed still |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: ah. |
| Nisstyre-laptop | <+Nisstyre-laptop> but if you read either GEB or I Am a Strange Loop you'll get it |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: I read GEB. |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: GEB was a nice book, but I knew a lot of what he was saying there. |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: I still enjoyed the drama stuff in the middle with Achilles, the Tortoise and their friends. |
| Nisstyre-laptop | rindolf: you had the idea of using PM as a metaphor for systems of thinking and the mind? |
| Nisstyre-laptop | because that's what the book is about |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: PM? |
| Nisstyre-laptop | Principia Mathematica |
| Nisstyre-laptop | the formal system constructed by Russell and Whitehead |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: I didn't think of it. |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: yes, I know. |
| Nisstyre-laptop | the entire book is his theory of consciousness |
| Nisstyre-laptop | and how there are levels of thinking |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: well, I read "I think, therefore I laugh" before I read GEB. |
| Nisstyre-laptop | you can be less of a thinking being, etc... |
| rindolf | Yes, he says that consciousness requires thinking in loops, or self-reflection. |
| rindolf | Well, it's an informal theory of consciousness. |
| Nisstyre-laptop | it requires what he calls a strange loop |
| Nisstyre-laptop | and there can be many levels to it |
| Nisstyre-laptop | more levels == what we think of as more human or more conscious beings |
| Nisstyre-laptop | so PM actually is able to self reflect to an extent |
| Nisstyre-laptop | although it requires a human to interpret it |
| rindolf | I believe, that creating artificial intelligence/artificial consciousness won't be easy to do, will require a lot of complex code, and will likely be faulty (have its own will, make mistakes, not run as quickly as more specialised code, etc.). |
| rindolf | Nisstyre-laptop: yes. |
| Nisstyre-laptop | depends what you mean by AI |
| Nisstyre-laptop | there are several different definitions |
| gde33 | the first human like robot will be build in Japan, the first artificial intelligence in the US |
| doomlord | heh |
| gde33 | hahaha |
| Nisstyre-laptop | the church-turing hypothesis would seem to imply it's possible, at least in principle |
| Nisstyre-laptop | to create "strong" AI |
| Nisstyre-laptop | although I intensely dislike that term |
| Nisstyre-laptop | since it tries to say that any system of thinking that doesn't work exactly the same as a human one isn't AI |
| Nisstyre-laptop | which is BS |
| gde33 | you guys are all worried about intelligence, I think that will be the easy part. Then comes the important stuff: giving it a sense of humor. |
| doomlord | so there was the idea that consciousness is associated with information flow, and that "more" information flow is "More" consciousness, a continuum like gravity... but gravity can produce a qualitatively different effect past a certain level (black holes..) |
| doomlord | so the "loop" is where information flow becomes qualitatively different ? |
| Nisstyre-laptop | doomlord: have you read GEB? |
| Nisstyre-laptop | it would be the ability a system has to observe itself, and encode the system itself in the system |
| Nisstyre-laptop | in other words self reflection |
| gde33 | I don't know many people who can be truly accused of having their own thoughts |
| doomlord | i don't think so but i have some related quotes from somewhere |
| doomlord | but can a system only approximate itself |
| Nisstyre-laptop | Principia Mathematica has that ability |
| doomlord | can a computer emulate itself... |
| Nisstyre-laptop | as Gödel showed |
| Nisstyre-laptop | you can encode formulas in PM as formulas in PM |
| Nisstyre-laptop | doomlord: yes |
| doomlord | but to what practical extent |
| Nisstyre-laptop | what is that supposed to mean? |
| doomlord | nature has many 'feedback loops' involving information |
| Nisstyre-laptop | physical limitations result in a hard limit of feedback loops |
| doomlord | what's GEB, links? |
| Nisstyre-laptop | if you point a camera at a mirror eventually it will "stop" |
| Nisstyre-laptop | doomlord: it's a book |
| Nisstyre-laptop | Gödel, Escher, Bach |
| doomlord | ah Google reveals |
| Nisstyre-laptop | but the sequel is more clear on what it's about |
| Nisstyre-laptop | I Am A Strange Loop |
| doomlord | OK sounds interesting |
| Nisstyre-laptop | doomlord: anyway, if you nest implementations of a computer in a computer eventually there will be a limit imposed by the physical situation |
| Nisstyre-laptop | i.e. the memory and processor speed |
| gde33 | only for limited thinkers |
| gde33 | it's like entropy, only for people who are afraid to think :P |
| doomlord | but don't physical systems also have practical limitations |
| gde33 | yes but those are not what we imagine them to be |
| gde33 | if only we knew the meaning of life, that would make things so much easier |
| Stryyker | how? |
| rindolf | I think the whole "AIs spawning AIs" dream is not a good strategy for doing software dev. I think programming is here to stay. It's not like humans can efficiently do what a dedicated polynomial time program can. |
| doomlord | even humans get programmed, lol |
| rindolf | doomlord: yes. |
| gde33 | that new immortality project had some interesting videos |
| rindolf | doomlord: a large part of human technology is mental. |
| rindolf | doomlord: in fact, we can no longer survive without our mental technology. We couldn't for thousands of years. |
| gde33 | oh but we can |
| gde33 | just need a favorable environment |
| doomlord | cultural template = human OS |
| gde33 | not mine |
| rindolf | gde33: you can survive without your mental technology? Even without conceptual thought? |
| gde33 | not sure what you mean |
| gde33 | isn't that what all the other species do? |
| doomlord | i saw some TED talk trying to explain the difference between Chinese and western spending/saving habits in the way the language encourages people to think about time |
| doomlord | supposedly Chinese language makes it harder to think of past, present, future separately |
| gde33 | languages can be really weird |
| gde33 | all languages have the word "argument" but some want it to have additional meanings, I believe in China an argument is equal to disobedience. lol |
| Belxjander | huh? |
| gde33 | in English it is a kind of fight |
| gde33 | 争 is a dispute 争论 is an argument or debate |
| gde33 | I cant think of good examples, I used to know a girl who knew many languages |
| gde33 | she showed me how some things are badly broken in some languages |
| doomlord | is it true Japanese can't say "no", they have to repeat the question in negative.. |
| doomlord | that is what we were told when learning but they must have a word for no surely |
| Belxjander | doomlord: there is "Hai" for Yes and "iie" for no |
| doomlord | so its just impolite to say "no" i guess |
| * Belxjander | is living in Japan |
| Belxjander | doomlord: you lose context... |
| Belxjander | doomlord: in English you don't repeat |
| gde33 | hah no |
| Belxjander | but in Japanese you do |
| Belxjander | gde33: depends on the person... my mother and father thought nothing of explaining politeness to me and will happily talk overtop me when I am speaking |
| rindolf | gde33: I only know (Modern) Hebrew, English, some mostly forgotten Written Arabic, and some French (which I'm now trying to regain). |
| Belxjander | I have also run into the same from Chinese, Japanese, American, European AND African people I have met |
| rindolf | gde33: well, I also know bits of other languages like Spanish, Russian, German, etc. |
| rindolf | gde33: I know that in Hebrew we have compulsive genders for objects, so we don't care about phrasing sentences in a gender-neutral form, which is an English obsession. |
| rindolf | gde33: I think it is parodied in this book - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinny_Legs_and_All_%28novel%29 (great one, BTW - taught me a lot). |
| doomlord | heh languages with sexism built in.. gender all the way through |
| gde33 | some languages are also more emotional than others |
| gde33 | Italians are hilarious |
| gde33 | so much enthusiasm it makes you think something is going on |
| Belxjander | gde33: spoken or written and the correct manner for if you are addressing "up/peer/down" the social ladder with regards respect... yes |
| gde33 | Belxjander: does that apply to many words? |