Maths Education and Languages - Fortune

Maths Education and Languages

cheeseduck rindolf: How long have you got on the book?
Jude rindolf, did you check out the new game of thrones episode?
rindolf Jude: no, I don't watch Game of Thrones.
rindolf Jude: I did see this on Slashdot - http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/03/31/1347248/hbo-says-game-of-thrones-piracy-is-a-compliment .
rindolf Jude: quite encouraging.
Jude why
rindolf Jude: what is encouraging?
rindolf Jude: I mean that some television producers are having a clue about piracy.
rindolf Jude: I think the MPAA is likely going to follow the lead of the RIAA and endorse the Internet.
rindolf Jude: well, there's still a long way to go with even music online.
cheeseduck rindolf: "How to win friends and..."
rindolf cheeseduck: ah, that. MAking slow progress in it.
rindolf cheeseduck: I thought it was a book *I* was writing.
rindolf Lately, I've been writing books and screenplays and stuff more than I've been reading them. :-D
cheeseduck "I've been reading a lot of scripts lately." "You know, it's cheaper than going to the movies."
rindolf cheeseduck: heh.
rindolf cheeseduck: some people find the screenplays funny as they are.
rindolf cheeseduck: they have good imagination.
cheeseduck I always found the standard they are supposed to be written in weird.
cheeseduck Kind of wasteful in space.
rindolf cheeseduck: for other people, it ruins the experience.
rindolf cheeseduck: yes, maybe.
Jude I see rindolf, did you catch the walking dead's finale?
rindolf cheeseduck: I have something of my own - http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/projects/XML-Grammar/Fiction/
rindolf Jude: not familiar with "Walking Dead".
rindolf Jude: horror drama - I have a soft stomach.
rindolf Jude: I prefer humour or drama/humour or sci-fi/humour or sci-fi/humour/drama or stuff like that.
Jude k, sorry to have bothered you
rindolf Jude: I watched three episodes of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, and so far - I'm game.
rindolf Jude: you did not bother me.
Jude never seen it
rindolf Jude: do you watch My Little Pony?
rindolf Jude: ah, I love it so far.
Jude heard it can get quite rough
Jude more nudity and violence than spartacus and game of thrones combined
rindolf One episode involved a lot of songs, which I disliked.
rindolf Jude: heh, LOL.
rindolf Jude++
rindolf Jude: it's directed at little girls.
rindolf Jude: so it's a pretty clean show.
Jude yeah I know
Jude I was kidding
rindolf Jude: if you want incest and violence, then look no further than the Jewish bible.
Jude there are a lot of dubbing sections of the show to go with metal songs or violent scripts etc
Jude rindolf, I'm jewish
rindolf Jude: reportedly, it was quite realism then (the Bible I mean).
rindolf Jude: ah, nice. So am I.
Jude and I couldn't agree more
Jude I have to go watch game of thrones
rindolf Jude: yes, you need to process the Bible a lot to get to the good stuff.
Jude will talk to you in an hour
rindolf Jude: enjoy.
Jude yeah, in Israel we have to take bible classes
Jude in high school
rindolf Maybe I'll prepare a fortune out of this conversation.
Jude and elementary school too
rindolf Jude: I'm Israeli too.
Jude really?
rindolf Jude: I live in Tel Aviv.
Jude where do you teach
rindolf Jude: yes.
Jude me too..
rindolf Jude: I don't teach.
Jude don't tell me you live near rabin sq.
rindolf Jude: well, I teach stuff via blogging and Internet writing.
rindolf Jude: no, but I go there often.
rindolf Jude: I live in Gimmel.
Jude ramat aviv?
rindolf Jude: yes.
Jude that's close to TAU
Jude do you study there?
rindolf Jude: yes.
Jude CS?
rindolf Jude: no, I just live with my parents.
rindolf Jude: I graduated from EE from the Technion.
Jude cool
rindolf Jude: http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/computers/education/opinion-on-the-technion/
Jude that's your blog?
rindolf Jude: it's my home site.
Jude cool
rindolf Jude: a good old fashioned Web 1.0 site in modern clothing.
rindolf Like valid HTML, modern CSS, some JS enhancements, etc.
rindolf But still static HTML pages.
rindolf I have some blogs on livejournal.com/etc.
Jude do you know a guy called nimrod?
rindolf Jude: there are many people called Nimrod - it's a common name.
Jude don't want to give him in on public chat
rindolf Jude: not sure I know a Nimrod off hand.
Jude nevermind then
rindolf Jude: OK, feel free to PM.
rindolf Jude: many Israeli names can get confusing.
rindolf OK.
rindolf Jude: I can easily come to Rabin sq. - there's a bus there from here.
Jude he's my brother, he lives close to you and he's also an open-source enthusaist
Jude I know
Jude there are plenty of them
rindolf Jude: ah, that's great.
Jude I take them to uni on a daily basis
Jude I live right by rabin sq.
rindolf Jude: so you study in TAU?
Jude yeah
rindolf Jude: TAU has tons of hot chicks.
Jude there are some
rindolf Jude: there aren't a lot of people on the streets of Gimmel.
rindolf Jude: so you study CS?
Jude no way
Jude maths
rindolf Jude: ah, I see.
rindolf Jude: maths...
Jude I know one or two nice looking girls, but I usually get put off by their personalities
rindolf Jude: I think maths is taught wrong in several aspects.
rindolf Jude: ah.
Jude I've only been attracted to one specimen of the female sex ever
Jude in my entire life
rindolf Jude: ah, really?
Jude I dunno, I agree when you speak of highschool maths
Jude I like university maths so far
Jude my professors are really nice
rindolf Jude: well, there are a lot of girls studying more humane stuff.
rindolf Jude: http://blogs.perl.org/users/shlomi_fish/2013/03/ann-my-transition-from-software-developer-to-writerentertaineramateur-philosopherinternet-celebrity.html
Jude I generally don't like people who study humane subjects (I don't consider philosophy to be as such though)
rindolf Jude: I've made a transition from a mathematician to a software developer and now I'm more of a writer/entertainer/amateur-philosopher.
Jude you didn't like the way it was taught?
rindolf Jude: like which way?
rindolf Jude: you mean maths?
Jude yes
rindolf Jude: well: 1. No pairwise work. Big mistake.
rindolf 2. Need to memorise a lot of silly stuff. Why??
rindolf 3. Maybe allow some sloppiness. Make maths more humane.
Jude that's why you got philosophy
Jude maths can't afford to be sloppy
rindolf There's something poetical about many maths' proofs.
Jude the intuitive ideas behind them
Jude are beautiful
Jude but intuition can be misleading
Jude that's why you have to be really strict
rindolf Jude: yes, that's why I think we should now move into proof verifier realm.
Jude if you want your proof to be valid
rindolf Jude: right.
rindolf Jude: but I was once criticised for this - http://ladypine.livejournal.com/24574.html
rindolf Jude: thing is - not everything should be strict when teaching.
rindolf Jude: I agree that mathematical intuition can be misleading, but it's still a good thing to have.
rindolf Jude: thing is I think many mathematicians now require a lot of dedication and selling their soul to the devil, which is turning them into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Nemo -s.
Jude it's not a very formal proof
rindolf Jude: when I studied EE most of my courses were with open material, and I could do pairwise work, which I enjoyed.
Jude but seems to hold
rindolf Jude: yes.
Jude I guess you are right
rindolf Jude: :-D
Jude that the concept is more important than the formalization
Jude but a lot of my professors agree with you
Jude and would give much more attention to grasping the important concept, and understanding intuition behind proofs
rindolf Jude: I'm always right. Unless I claim that "A is not-A". But Chuck Norris would be right even then.
Jude lol
rindolf Hah! A new Chuck Norris factoid.
Jude <3
Jude it's been nice chatting with you, I really have to go now, I need to watch GoT and then go to bed and wake up in 4 hours
rindolf Jude: my father and I now have an ongoing Chuck Norris meme.
rindolf Jude: bye, have fun, and good night.
Jude rindolf, what's that
rindolf Jude: what?
Jude the Chuck Norris meme
rindolf Jude: well, we say stuff like "you're my most Chuck Norris dad." or "I taught Chuck Norris how to fight."
rindolf It's a personal running joke.
rindolf Well, a family-wide one.
rindolf We have our own jargon.
Jude heh
rindolf Most families do.
Jude I'm not close enough to any member of my family
Jude to do that
rindolf Ah.
Jude talk to you later, ciao
rindolf Bye.
Nisstyre-laptop rindolf: Douglas Hofstadter gave a talk about how mathematicians aren't as rigorous as they claim to be
Nisstyre-laptop and that they use a lot of analogical thinking
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: ah, OK.
Nisstyre-laptop it was at the university of Toronto
Nisstyre-laptop I missed it sadly though
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: ah.
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: was it filmed?
Nisstyre-laptop but I can basically tell you what he said more or less
Nisstyre-laptop rindolf: there was a webcast
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: OK.
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: ah.
Nisstyre-laptop not sure if it can be accessed still
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: ah.
Nisstyre-laptop <+Nisstyre-laptop> but if you read either GEB or I Am a Strange Loop you'll get it
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: I read GEB.
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: GEB was a nice book, but I knew a lot of what he was saying there.
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: I still enjoyed the drama stuff in the middle with Achilles, the Tortoise and their friends.
Nisstyre-laptop rindolf: you had the idea of using PM as a metaphor for systems of thinking and the mind?
Nisstyre-laptop because that's what the book is about
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: PM?
Nisstyre-laptop principia mathematica
Nisstyre-laptop the formal system constructed by Russell and Whitehead
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: I didn't think of it.
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: yes, I know.
Nisstyre-laptop the entire book is his theory of consciousness
Nisstyre-laptop and how there are levels of thinking
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: well, I read "I think, therefore I laugh" before I read GEB.
Nisstyre-laptop you can be less of a thinking being, etc...
rindolf Yes, he says that consciousness requires thinking in loops, or self-reflection.
rindolf Well, it's an informal theory of consciousness.
Nisstyre-laptop it requires what he calls a strange loop
Nisstyre-laptop and there can be many levels to it
Nisstyre-laptop more levels == what we think of as more human or more conscious beings
Nisstyre-laptop so PM actually is able to self reflect to an extent
Nisstyre-laptop although it requires a human to interpret it
rindolf I believe, that creating artificial intelligence/artificial consciousness won't be easy to do, will require a lot of complex code, and will likely be faulty (have its own will, make mistakes, not run as quickly as more specialised code, etc.).
rindolf Nisstyre-laptop: yes.
Nisstyre-laptop depends what you mean by AI
Nisstyre-laptop there are several different definitions
gde33 the first human like robot will be build in japan, the first artifical intelligence in the us
doomlord heh
gde33 hahaha
Nisstyre-laptop the church-turing hypothesis would seem to imply it's possible, at least in principle
Nisstyre-laptop to create "strong" AI
Nisstyre-laptop although I intensely dislike that term
Nisstyre-laptop since it tries to say that any system of thinking that doesn't work exactly the same as a human one isn't AI
Nisstyre-laptop which is BS
gde33 you guys are all worried about intelligence, I think that will be the easy part. Then comes the important stuff: giving it a sense of humor.
doomlord so there was the idea that consciousness is associated with information flow, and that "more" information flow is "More" consciousness, a continuum like gravity... but gravity can produce a qualitatively different effect past a certain level (black holes..)
doomlord so the "loop" is where information flow becomes qualitatively different ?
Nisstyre-laptop doomlord: have you read GEB?
Nisstyre-laptop it would be the ability a system has to observe itself, and encode the system itself in the system
Nisstyre-laptop in otherwords self reflection
gde33 I don't know many people who can be truly accused of having their own thoughts
doomlord i dont thinkso but i have some related quotes from somewhere
doomlord but can a system only approximate itself
Nisstyre-laptop principia mathematica has that ability
doomlord can a computer emulate itself...
Nisstyre-laptop as Goedel showed
Nisstyre-laptop you can encode formulas in PM as formulas in PM
Nisstyre-laptop doomlord: yes
doomlord but to what practical extent
Nisstyre-laptop what is that supposed to mean?
doomlord nature has many 'feedback loops' involving information
Nisstyre-laptop physical limitations result in a hard limit of feedback loops
doomlord whats GEB, links?
Nisstyre-laptop if you point a camera at a mirror eventually it will "stop"
Nisstyre-laptop doomlord: it's a book
Nisstyre-laptop Godel, Escher, Bach
doomlord ah google reveals
Nisstyre-laptop but the sequel is more clear on what it's about
Nisstyre-laptop I Am A Strange Loop
doomlord ok sounds interestign
Nisstyre-laptop doomlord: anyway, if you nest implementations of a computer in a computer eventually there will be a limit imposed by the physical situation
Nisstyre-laptop i.e. the memory and processor speed
gde33 only for limited thinkers
gde33 it's like entropy, only for people who are afraid to think :P
doomlord but dont physical systems also have practical limitations
gde33 yes but those are not what we imagine them to be
gde33 if only we knew the meaning of life, that would make things so much easier
Stryyker how?
rindolf I think the whole "AIs spawning AIs" dream is not a good strategy for doing software dev. I think programming is here to stay. It's not like humans can efficiently do what a dedicated polynomial time program can.
doomlord even humans get programmed, lol
rindolf doomlord: yes.
gde33 that new immortality project had some interesting videos
rindolf doomlord: a large part of human technology is mental.
rindolf doomlord: in fact, we can no longer survive without our mental technology. We couldn't for thousands of years.
gde33 oh but we can
gde33 just need a favorable environment
doomlord cultural template = human OS
gde33 not mine
rindolf gde33: you can survive without your mental technology? Even without conceptual thought?
gde33 not sure what you mean
gde33 isn't that what all the other species do?
doomlord i saw some TED talk trying to explain the difference between chinese and western spending/saving habits in the way the language encourages people to think about time
doomlord supposedly chinese language makes it harder to think of past,present,future seperately
gde33 languages can be really weird
gde33 all languages have the word "argument" but some want it to have aditional meanings, I believe in china an argument is equal to disobedience. lol
Belxjander huh?
gde33 in english it is a kind of fight
gde33 争 is a dispute 争论 is an argument or debate
gde33 I cant think of good examples, I used to know a girl who knew many languages
gde33 she showed me how some things are badly broken in some languages
doomlord is it true japanese can't say "no", they have to repeat the question in negative..
doomlord thats what we were told when learning but they must have a word for no surely
Belxjander doomlord: there is "Hai" for Yes and "iie" for no
doomlord so its just impolite to say "no" i guess
* Belxjander is living in Japan
Belxjander doomlord: you lose context...
Belxjander doomlord: in English you don't repeat
gde33 hah no
Belxjander but in Japanese you do
Belxjander gde33: depends on the person... my mother and father thought nothing of explaining politeness to me and will happilly talk overtop me when I am speaking
rindolf gde33: I only know (Modern) Hebrew, English, some mostly forgotten Written Arabic, and some French (which I'm now trying to regain).
Belxjander I have also run into the same from Chinese, Japanese, American, European AND African people I have met
rindolf gde33: well, I also know bits of other languages like Spanish, Russian, German, etc.
rindolf gde33: I know that in Hebrew we have compulsive genders for objects, so we don't care about phrasing sentences in a gender-neutral form, which is an English obsession.
rindolf gde33: I think it is parodied in this book - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinny_Legs_and_All_%28novel%29 (great one, BTW - taught me a lot).
doomlord heh languages with sexism built in.. gender all the way through
gde33 some languages are also more emotional than others
gde33 italians are hilarious
gde33 so much enthusiasm it makes you think something is going on
Belxjander gde33: spoken or written and the correct manner for if you are addressing "up/peer/down" the social ladder with regards respect... yes
gde33 Belxjander: does that apply to many words?
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