Subject: 300 Proofs of God's Existence + Why Atheism?

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:42:31 +0200

Check:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

For 300 hilarious "proofs" of God's Existence.

There's a serious paper on "Why Atheism" here:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm

And more resources on Atheism here:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Debate.html

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish
-- 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      [email-masked]
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:59:37 +0200

> http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Debate.html

Are hackers necessarily Atheists, or at least Agnostics? I mean, Is
there a correlation between god (or lack thereof) and hackers?

Just because I'm an Atheist doesn't mean everyone are.

-- Arik

---

From: Busi Saber <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:25:54 -0800 (PST)

shlomi a personal question for u if u dont mind answering it....r u jewish? the name says alot....try and get back to me,

Busi

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From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:55:10 +0200

On Saturday 20 November 2004 09:25, Busi Saber wrote:
> shlomi a personal question for u if u dont mind answering it....r u jewish?
> the name says alot....try and get back to me,
>

I am a Jew by peopleship (i.e: I belong to the Jewish people). I am also an 
Atheist and don't believe in the Jewish religion or in any other religion.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Busi Saber <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 02:56:34 -0800 (PST)

I see thnx for ur response take care

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From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:52:27 +0200

> Atheist and don't believe in the Jewish religion or in any other religion.

You meen that you are part of the Jewish nation but you are an Atheist
by religion.

That's the problem with the term 'Jew'. People may misinterpret you
when you say 'I'm a Jew' and then you have to launch an involved
discussion of what it means.

American Christians or Indian Hindu don't have these problems.

-- Arik

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:33:36 +0200

> American Christians or Indian Hindu don't have these problems.

There may be slightly unique subtexts in saying that you're a "Jew", but
I don't agree with you and Shlomi that in Jews are much different than other
religions in the way that secular people still say "I am a ...".

Many Americans (to use your example), who are secular and don't really
believe in god and don't regularly go to church, nevertheless when asked
"what is your religion", will answer "I'm Christian", and moreover - even
say they are part of some denomination, as in "I'm Catholic", "Protestant",
or whatever. When they marry, they will find a priest of their denomination
to wed them, and sometimes even prefer the spouse to be of the same
denomination. They will baptise their children, go with them to church once
in a while, and so on - all while not believing in God for a second.

So when an American says "I'm a Christian", it often doesn't mean he believes
in God, in Jesus Christ, in the New Testament, the Pope, or anything of that
sort. It may just mean that one of his ancestors was a practicing and believing
Christian, and this attribute - but nothing else - was inherited. I don't
see how this is different from the peopledom of being a "Jew".

So not only secular Jews have a traditional "religion" which they claim to
be part of even though they don't practice that religion. Not only Jews
view themselves a "nation", not in the sense of having a country, but rather
in the sense of being more comfortable being with other people of that nation;
If you ask people in Northern Ireland, the Catholic and Protestants *are*
different peoples. If you ask Bin Laden, there *is* a nation of Islam
(he will tell you that there couldn't be a secular Muslim, but just walk
around Turkey and you'll see that those do exist).

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Sunday, Nov 21 2004, 8 Kislev 5765
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Why are you looking down here? The joke
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |is above!

---

From: Busi Saber <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:52:02 -0800 (PST)

Im sorry for bring up the subject of religion in this group to begin with it always ends up controvertial.  I am a jew an orthadox frum one and when I hear of a jew callling themself an athiest it breaks my heart, so be it.

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From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:12:18 +0200

> > American Christians or Indian Hindu don't have these problems.
[snip]
> Many Americans (to use your example), who are secular and don't really
[snip]

You got what I meant wrong.

Americans can say 'I'm an American' and it refers to their
nationality, and 'I am a Christian' and it refers to their religion.
Secularity doesn't have anything to do with it.

Jews must elaborate, because when you're asked if you're Jewish, you
never know if they are asking about the national affiliation or the
religious affiliation. Many times they are one and the same. For
Myself, for example, they are not. I am NOT a secular Jew. I'm an
Atheist.

-- Arik

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:26:23 +0200

> Secularity doesn't have anything to do with it.

But like I said, "I am Christian" is often said by people whose only relation
to christianity was that their grandfather was baptised, and once upon a time
they've seen a church. I agree that the feeling of being a "nation" is stronger
in Jews than in Christians, probably because Jews have always been a minority,
but I don't agree that it's a qualitative difference.

> Myself, for example, they are not. I am NOT a secular Jew. I'm an

Again, I don't see your point. You claim you're not a Jew, then you're not.
Sure, your parents were Jews, and the government still considers you to be
one, but you think you are not. Most people will simply consider themselves
"Secular jews" - being affiliated with this *religion* but not practicing it.

So I don't see how your or Shlomi's situation is any different than if you
guys were born in America to Christian parents. In both cases you would have
said "I am was born a Jew / Christian, but I'm not practicing an atheist now."

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Sunday, Nov 21 2004, 8 Kislev 5765
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |A messy desk is a sign of a messy mind.
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |An empty desk is a sign of an empty mind.

---

From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:34:23 +0200 (EET)

In other words, it breaks your heart that the religious oppression in
Israel is not strong enough for your taste, and that people still feel
free to have Jewish descendants AND proclaim their being atheist in their
personal beliefs and lifestyle?

If yes, then I AM GLAD YOUR HEART IS BROKEN!
I hope it'll never happen that the regime in Israel will change in such a
way which would mend your heart.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Busi Saber wrote:

> Im sorry for bring up the subject of religion in this group to begin
> with it always ends up controvertial.I am a jew an orthadox frum one
> and when I hear of a jew callling themself an athiest it breaks my
> heart, so be it.
                                             --- Omer
                           (Another atheist with Jewish blood)
My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:25:37 +0200

> Myself, for example, they are not. I am NOT a secular Jew. I'm an

That, too, is a matter of definition rather than practice. 

I am, for instance, a proud atheist-Jewish both in the ethnic /and/ religious
sense. I do have a religion, and that is Judaism, that I do not believe in. But
I do have one. Furthermore, it is orthodox Judaism, so the god I do not believe
in is the Jewish god, rather than, say, Allah or the Holy Trinity, in whom I do
not in particular not believe, merely indifferent. It is a matter of upbringing
and tradition, you see. Before I moved to Tel-Aviv, I even had a particular
Orthodox Senagogue in Jerusalem to which I deliberate and visibly refrained from
going, and I went as far as keeping my disloyalty to this senagogue and to the
Orthodox sect even when my mother and my sister (who are just as atheist as I
am) switched to Reform Judaism as their non-religion and some Reform place in
Rehavia as their non-senagogue.

I believe that many other Israelis are in a similar religious position as me. I
wonder about the Americans and Europeans, though.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:49:48 +0200

> personal beliefs and lifestyle?

Belief in an ideal and wish for its realization do not imply support for such a
realization by force, necessarily. My heart breaks every time I hear of a Debian
user switching to an RPM-based distro for whatever reason, but I will never
support a criminal law mandating DEBs for all Linux systems.

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:35:12 +0200

> "Secular jews" - being affiliated with this *religion* but not practicing it.

Regarding the govt. - the government doesn't know my religion, and
never have. The only thing the government keeps a record of is my
NATIONALITY. You are again confused by the duality.

I'm sorry, Nadav, but Atheism is a religion in itself, as far as this
term applies, and I practice it. I do not belong to the Jewish
religion but don't wish to practice it. I am in a different group. The
reason I don't practice Judaism is that I am not a Judaist, not that I
don't feel like it. In fact, I do practice some Judaism - for example
by following some of the testaments by default (thou shalt not kill),
or by actually performing ceremonies. Not because there's a deity
wishing me, but because:

My nationality is Jewish, and like it or not, the traditions of my
nation include a lot of religious ceremonies. Some I follow, others I
don't. I have Passover SEDER with my family, I remember religious
holidays, I read the bible. This is part of our roots and traditions.
In fact, these customs and this religion is what kept my - our -
nation as a nation. Like it or not, in an age before the Internet, the
only way to maintain the link to our shared past is by congregating in
synagogues (ever wondered why you need a minimum of 10 people to pray
togeather?) and performing those ceremonies.

> said "I am was born a Jew / Christian, but I'm not practicing an atheist now."

"Not practicing an atheist now"? Care to explain?

-- Arik

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:50:59 +0200

> Rehavia as their non-senagogue.

I think what you are describing is Infidelity rather than Atheism.
Check out http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=infidel versus
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=atheist

> wonder about the Americans and Europeans, though.

You have a right to your belief as anyone else does, but in my -
biased - opinion you have a specific grudge against a specific sect of
a specific organized religion, and I hope it is not very common. I'd
be sorry to see many people living their lives with such deep dark
emotions.

-- Arik

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:41:02 +0200

> nation include a lot of religious ceremonies. Some I follow, others I

If you translate it to the language of the rest of the world, you are not
Jewish, but your *ancestors* were Jewish. This is not a nationality (your
nationality is Israeli - unless you want to dispute that too :)). This
is exactly like an American whose ancestors were christians, his heritage
is christian, he goes have Christmas dinner with his family, but he is not
a practicing Christian and does not believe in God or in Jesus Christ.

In the risk of invoking Godwin's law (and ending this silly thread once
and for all), "Judaism" was considered a nationality, rather than simply
a religion that a person of any nationality could have, in three contexts:

 1. The bible - where "Jews" and "People living in the Judea" was basically
    one of the same. People living in the rest of the land of Israel were not
    even named "Jews", but other terms were used, like "Hebrews", etc.

 2. The state of Israel, that insists on that idiotic "Nationality" thing
    on the ID cards, when what it really means is the racist "religion and
    race". Do you think that Arab Israelis have "Palestinian" listed as their
    nationality? Certainly not :) This "nationality" field is, again, just
    whitewash for religion and race.

 3. Nazi Germany, whose Munich laws defined Jews as a nationality or race.
    (and determined that having this nation inside Europe is damanging it,
    and that the race should be exterminated).

In a few generations, we will have in Israel some people who still consider
themselves "Secular Jews", other will consider themselves full-fledged
Atheists, and others will have other religions (e.g., immigrants which are
Christian). All will share one nationality - Israeli. Not Jew.

> "Not practicing an atheist now"? Care to explain?

I meant, "I was born a Jew/Christian, but I'm not practicing this religion
now, I don't believe in God, and I'm therefore I'm an Atheist now".

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Monday, Nov 22 2004, 9 Kislev 5765
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |A city is a large community where people
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |are lonesome together.

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:40:06 +0200

> nationality is Israeli - unless you want to dispute that too :)). This

Well, there are different definitions to nationality and that is one
of them, so I'll just stop this thread now.

> a religion that a person of any nationality could have, in three contexts:

Godwin law can't be invoked for the purpose of ending a thread. RTFM.

>     even named "Jews", but other terms were used, like "Hebrews", etc.

Doesn't hold today. Too many people associate "Jewish" with observance
of Judaism or at least secular affinity to same.

>     whitewash for religion and race.

I agree, it's totally racist and should have eliminated ages ago.
Ironically one of the most racist parties (Shas) was the key factor in
eliminating the nationality field.

>     and that the race should be exterminated).

They were not alone. Other scolars (Jewish ones too, like Pinsker)
noticed that the Jews constitute a nation within a nation.

> Christian). All will share one nationality - Israeli. Not Jew.

... and in my opinion you can be both.
 
> now, I don't believe in God, and I'm therefore I'm an Atheist now".

Your definition may vary, for me Atheism is BELIEVING in the lack of a
deity, not just disbelieving it's existance. But no one really has a
good definition of Atheism to I won't nitpick.

-- Arik

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:50:01 +0200

Let's see, then:

> atheist: 
> one who believes that there is no deity.
Check
> infidel:
> 1 : one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
Check
> 2 a : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion
Check
> 2 b : one who acknowledges no religious belief
Check
> 3 : a disbeliever in something specified or understood
Check

Well, it looks like I am both an atheist AND an infidel (for all four
definitions, no less! Note that one of them is almost equivalent to "atheist",
by the way). I prefer "atheist", though, because it does not have all those
negative connotations. The religious and non-religious alike are free to call me
whatever they want, though.

> be sorry to see many people living their lives with such deep dark

God forbid. I have the deepest and warmest feelings towards Judaism, and
Orthodox Judaism in particular. The senagogue in Gilo, Jerusalem will always
have a place in my heart even years after its hypothetical wrecking down to the
ground to make room for a shopping mall. I will argue relentlessly that
Christianity is not a monotheistic religion at all but a thinly vield
monotheistic front, taken out of context from Judaism, hiding the pre-existing
and primitive (and violent!) pagan Roman and Germanic religions. I will likewise
argue that Reform Judaism is not real Judaism any more than the so-called white
"chocolate" is real chocolate, since a faith that fully excuses you from God's
explicit commands at your leisure might be similar to but is certainly not real
Judaism, just as real chocolate by definition contains coacoa butter. I've no
grudges against anyone. Why should I? It's my own religion. I just don't believe
in it, and don't practice (most of) it.

---

From: Ofir Carny <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:43:00 +0200

> eliminating the nationality field.

Err... no, it was the court, it almost forced them to make that choice.

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:23:07 +0200

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:50:01 +0200, [email-masked] <[email-masked]> wrote:
[snip]
> in it, and don't practice (most of) it.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand.

There is a religion that is your favorite, or 'yours', which you
explicitly do not practice, as opposed to other religions, which are
'not yours', and which you don't practice as well.

Or from another point of view, you don't practice any religion, but
you have a favorite religion which you think is the best one.

Did I get that correctly?

-- Arik

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:29:49 +0200

> Err... no, it was the court, it almost forced them to make that choice.

Well, the court ruled that a Reform Jew should be considered a Jew,
that's all. Eli Ishay refused to allow that a non-Jew (as he considers
Reform Jews) would have an ID card saying 'Jew'. So as Minister of
Internal Affairs he decided to remove the nationality specification
from the national ID card altogeather.

He's an imbacile, a racist and a demagogue (ah hominem attack) but for
once he has done a good deed. Like they say, "MI-SHE-LO LI-SHMA BA
LI-SHMA"

משלא לשמה בא לשמה

(which roughly translates to "one does it for his own reasons, but he
ends up doing it to serve God's will", usually refers to a person
accomplishing a religious goal without intending it)

-- Arik

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:52:22 +0200

> Did I get that correctly?

Pretty much. But I want to explain "best one", because I did not mean to imply
that I have an absolute scale by which to compare religions.

Religion, to me, is a matter of more than practice or belief, and inasmuch as it
is so, Orthodox Judaism is my religion. It is a matter of tradition,
affiliation, belonging, loyalty. It is /also/ a matter of being influenced by
it[1], and I have been influenced particularly by Judaism.

[1] Like Jack Miles said in his introduction to "God: A Biography", from which I
shall quote here as soon as I get back home.

---

From: Busi Saber <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:24:36 -0800 (PST)

BRAVOOOOOOOOOOOO...Arik sooms to be one of the few in this group that talks with some common sense on issues!  Although I dont agree with everything u say Arik I applud the grace in the way u prestent ur arguments

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:22:36 +0200

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:24:36 -0800 (PST), Busi Saber
<[email-masked]> wrote:
> BRAVOOOOOOOOOOOO...Arik sooms to be one of the few in this group that talks
> with some common sense on issues!  Although I dont agree with everything u
> say Arik I applud the grace in the way u prestent ur arguments

I try.

I work in a software company, and if there's one thing I have learned
is that before you write a single line of code, you have to write the
terminology with which you work, in a clear and concise manner. It is
frustrating to work when everyone has their own idea about what we're
making.

Like every good lesson I have learned it the hard way, after a
component of ours had 5 (!) different names (most other components had
2-3). Never mind the sales people calling it something else than us
R&D guys, never mind the debugging log files where the name of the log
file was different than the name of the module or the component, but
the inconsistencies went as far as the GUI, where the same component
was called one thing or the other, depending on the guy who wrote that
piece of code. The tech writers that wrote our manuals were on the
fritz after they have seen it.

So now every document about a component that I write or review ends
out as having section number 2 - terminology.

-- Arik

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:50:46 +0200

> you have a favorite religion which you think is the best one.

Exactly!

This is what I said by Judaism not being a "peopledom" or "nation" or
whatever, but rather a religion just like all others. There are people
who prefer Judaism but not believe in it, just like there are others that
prefer Christianity (or whatever) and not believe in it. You can call the
formers secular Jews, and the latter secular Christians.

You can remain a "fond of Judaism" for a few generations, until someone
picks up a different religion. For example, Mendelson (the composer) had
famous Jewish ancestors, but he himself converted to Christianity and
therefore he and his decendents are Christian. If Judaism was a "nation"
or a "race" or whatever you couldn't convert out of it - and yet it is
quite possible to do so, and after the conversion the decendents don't
remain "Jews".

Hence my saying that Judaism is not a nation - it's a religion. If you
choose to call yourself a "Secular Jew" or "Atheist that still has a soft
spot of Judaism" or "Atheist with Jewish ancestors", you can remain a
"Jew". But the moment you fully convert to another religion or to total
atheism, there is no longer any sense in calling you a "Jew".

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |     Tuesday, Nov 23 2004, 10 Kislev 5765
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |If the universe is expanding, why can't I
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |find a parking space?

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:39:19 +0200

On Tuesday 23 November 2004 15:50, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2004, Arik Baratz wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] OT 
> formers secular Jews, and the latter secular Christians.

I beg to differ, but Judaism is a peopleship. It's not just a religion. So I 
am a member of the Jewish people, but an Atheist. I don't have any soft spots 
for the Jewish religion and rejects it just as I reject any other religion or 
mystical belief. 

Jews are a people, as Herzl identified. The word "Yehudim" means the 
descendants of Yehuda, the Son of Jacob. Jews are a people and a nation, and 
not just a religion. In fact, the Jewish religion is a very small part of 
Judaism. 

> atheism, there is no longer any sense in calling you a "Jew".

Yes, there is. I'm a Jew (by peopleship) and I'm an Atheist.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

--

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:19:28 +0200

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:39:19 +0200, Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]> wrote:
[snip]
> not just a religion. In fact, the Jewish religion is a very small part of

Yehuda was just one of 12 sons of Jacob, which happened to father the
the tribe from which descended the royal line at the time. Later on in
king Yerovam's period (IIRC) there was sort of a split in Israel that
left Judia and the rest of Israel in two separate camps, and
subsequently they were sent into exile deparately, in the order that
they were conquered.

-- Arik

---

From: Tzafrir Cohen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:15:04 +0200

> not just a religion. In fact, the Jewish religion is a very small part of 

After around 722 BC to around 70 AC there was only Judea (Yehuda, Yehud,
Judea, and probably some other names). The people of "Israel" was no
more than ancient tradition at the main stages of the shaping of the
jewish religion/nation.

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen                       +---------------------------+
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend|
mailto:[email-masked]       +---------------------------+

---

From: Adi Stav <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:57:25 +0200

> a religion that a person of any nationality could have, in three contexts:

What's "nationality" to you? Is it the same as citizenship, or something
else? Is Basque a nationality? Is Roma?

---

From: Adi Stav <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:53:23 +0200

> shall quote here as soon as I get back home.

Ah, there it is. From the keynote:

"That God created mankind, male and female, in his own image is a matter
of faith. That our forbears strove for centuries to perfect themselves
in the image of their God is a matter of historical fact. During the long
centuries when the God of the Jews and the Christians was the
unchallenged ultimate reality of the West, Europeans and, later,
American men and women consciously sought to model themselves on
him.
[...] Many in the West no longer believe in God, but lost belief, like a lost
fortune, have effects that linger. "

My set of beliefs is an effect that lingers. So is the State of Israel.

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:06:25 +0200

> else? Is Basque a nationality? Is Roma?

BTW, the issue of nationality is an important one in the US.
They came up with a solution which can be compared (by those who know Emacs)
to Emacs's "major-mode" and "minor-mode".

Everyone's "major-mode", or nationality, is American. But they also have
a minor-mode, in which some sort of ancestory or race is remembered. Thus
you have African-Americans, Irish-Americans, Jewish-Americans, and so on.
None of these "minor-modes" are separate "nations". You don't have an
"African" nation in the US (despite some attempts by some radicals), an
"Irish" nation in the US (but there is an Irish nation in Ireland), or,
to return to our subject, a Jewish nation.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |   Wednesday, Nov 24 2004, 11 Kislev 5765
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The trouble with political jokes is they
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |get elected.

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:02:24 +0200

> else? Is Basque a nationality? Is Roma?

In my book, your "nationality" is usually your citizenship - unless you
belong to some minority which is trying to create a state but outside
opressors are preventing you from doing so. Thus, you can say there is
a Basque nationality (and Basque nationalists are fighting to make their
area a real country). Native Americans ("Indians") are also a nation in
that sense, because they actually had countries (or tribes, or whatever
they called them) before the white settlers came.

In that sense, it is hard to say that Jews outside Israel are a nation.
The million or so Jews in New York City have no desires to form a Jewish
state. If they wanted to go to a Jewish state, they would most likely
go to Israel - which would then make them Israeli, not Jewish-nationals.

About Roma ("Gypsies"), I don't know what to answer. The answer is probably
"yes", because although they do not want to form a state (their tradition
was to move around), the thing that binds them is their origin from one
state (in India?), and common ancestry, and not a religion. You cannot
"convert" into being a Roma like you can convert into Judaism.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |   Wednesday, Nov 24 2004, 11 Kislev 5765
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Communism is the equal distribution of
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |poverty.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:25:11 +0200

Quoting Nadav Har'El <[email-masked]>:

> opressors are preventing you from doing so. 

This definition would make Jews between 1876 and 1948 a nationality -- a
minority trying to create a state and preventing from doing so by oppressors.
This is further supported by your later statements regarding the Roma. Do you
agree?

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:52:14 +0200

> This is further supported by your later statements regarding the Roma. Do you

No, this doesn't make the *Jews* a nation, it makes the Zionists a nation.
The Zionists were Jews that wanted to build a nation; Many other Jews opposed
this and did not want to be a nation, and remain a religion that can coexist
inside any nation.

So the Zionists built a nation. This nation is called Israel. The people
who came to Israel to build that nation are now called Israelis, not Jews.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |   Wednesday, Nov 24 2004, 11 Kislev 5765
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Hardware, n.: The parts of a computer
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |system that can be kicked.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:56:22 +0200

> this and did not want to be a nation, and remain a religion that can

How is the situation of non-Zionist Jews different from the situation of Basques
who do not want independence (I think they are even the majority?)

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:32:14 +0200

> who do not want independence (I think they are even the majority?)

Indeed, many Basques would not like to be idependent, and would not want to
be called a "nation".

Consider another example: people in the southern United States have some
common culture and heritage, which led some of them to believe that they
are a seperate nation. They declared a seperate country, and thought the
north. After the south lost, any statement that Dixie is a seperate nation
with a separate culture and should have a seperate country sounds strange.
Nobody really believes in that any more. So what is a seperate nation does
change over time. The Dixie nation disappeared, because it lost its country
and nobody wants to be part of it any more. Other nations remained despite
losing their countries, e.g., the American "First Nations" (a.k.a. Native
Americans or American Indians). Jews, on the other hand, stopped being a
nation over 2000 years ago, and became a religion just like any other.

2000 years later, people wanted to form a new Jewish nation. But not all
Jews agreed to this, and many wanted no part in the new nation; Therefore
the new nation is called "Israel", and it does not encompass everyone who
has the Jewish religion.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |   Wednesday, Nov 24 2004, 12 Kislev 5765
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Why do programmers mix up Christmas and
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |Halloween? Because DEC 25 = OCT 31

---

From: Orna Agmon <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:09:41 +0200 (IST)

> Nobody really believes in that any more. So what is a seperate nation does

Actually, some people still do.
http://www.dixienet.org/

> the new nation is called "Israel", and it does not encompass everyone who

The Jews were more than a religion in the past 2000 years - they were
genetics, as well. Compare to budhizm, for example. AFAIK, a person can
belive in Budha and practice Budhizm, and he would not be considered less
of a Budhist because he was not born one.

But we have the term of GER, which is a person who converted. If we go
further, then religious Jews differenciate between a good HOZER BITSHUVA
and a born religious person. A HOZER BITSHUVA would have a problem finding
a born religious person to marry, and would usually be matched with
another HOZER(ET) BITSHUVA.

Although, as you mentioned earlier, Christians can be secular and still
declare themselves as part of the church their grand parents went to
(i.e. genetics matters when you are secular), I do
not think genetics matters in their case, when they decide to convert.

Orna.
-- 
Orna Agmon
http://vipe.stud.technion.ac.il/~ladypine/ ICQ: 348759096

---

From: Tal Rotbart <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:17:28 +0200

Like many other quantities that elude definition, nationality is a
meaningless term.
You define who you are, what you want to be called, anyone that tries
to force a label on you is nothing but a fascist.

-Tal

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:09:41 +0200 (IST), Orna Agmon
<[email-masked]> wrote:
> Yahoo! Groups Links

-- 
/************************************************

  Tal 'redbeard' Rotbart
  Software Wizard

  eMail:  redbeard of gmail dot com
  Tel:    +972-2-671-6178
  Mobile: +972-52-896-5025

  Snail mail:
          Klozner 7/2
          Jerusalem 93388
          ISRAEL

************************************************/

---

From: Adi Stav <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:04:35 +0200

> Indeed, many Basques would not like to be idependent, and would not want to

Of course. By the way, there are also many others who DO consider
themselves Basque by nationality and STILL do not want political
independence.

But the question that I asked was: would you consider the people who do
not want Basque independence not part of Basque nationality, and define
the Basque nation to consist ONLY of that supposed miniority that 
supports independence, like you defined the Zionist nation?

> the new nation is called "Israel", and it does not encompass everyone who

Okay, let's put something else straight: is nation equivalent with people
in your definition?