Subject: Need Personal Loans so I can Collect Online Donations

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 22:30:15 +0200

Hi good people!

Throughout the years I have created (and still am creating) many useful and 
free-as-in-speech digital resources: open source software, a home site with 
many resources, presentations about various topics (including "Perl for Perl 
Newbies"), essays, articles and fictitious stories. I placed them all on the 
web for anyone to enjoy and learn from, without asking for anything in 
return. I enjoy doing that and plan to continue doing that. However, I also 
would like to start seeing some monetary benefit.

For this, I decided to add a PayPal donation button to my sites, so people can 
donate money for me in exchange for benefiting from the fruits of my labour. 
In order to accept credit cards donations PayPal requires two things:

1. An international credit card.

2. An account in a U.S. bank.

I recently opened an account at FIBI and they told me that in order to get an 
international credit card I need to reserve 15,000 NIS. I don't have this 
kind of money at the moment, and since I need a PayPal account to collect it, 
I have a chicken and egg problem. But I figured out a way to resolve it.

If you feel that you know me well and that my work is worthy, please consider 
giving me a personal loan of several 1,000's NIS. I will use it to set up my 
PayPal account and to eventually gather enough money to pay it back. 
(Possibly with some interest).

Thanks in advance,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      [email-masked]
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

95% of the programmers consider 95% of the code they did not write, in the
bottom 5%.

---

From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:48:52 +0200

Hello Shlomi,
You may want to try the Google AdSense program.  This program does not
require any deposit to start earning money.
                                                  --- Omer

-- 
Sent from a PC running a top secret test version of Windows 97.
My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

---

From: Gadi Evron <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:40:43 +0200

> (Possibly with some interest).

Is this a phishing email?

	Gadi.

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 23:03:49 +0200

> require any deposit to start earning money.

I don't want to add ads to my site.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> > Throughout the years I have created (and still am creating) many useful
> > and free-as-in-speech digital resources: open source software, a home
> > site with many resources, presentations about various topics (including
> > "Perl for Perl Newbies"), essays, articles and fictitious stories. I
> > placed them all on the web for anyone to enjoy and learn from, without
> > asking for anything in return. I enjoy doing that and plan to continue
> > doing that. However, I also would like to start seeing some monetary
> > benefit.
> >
> > For this, I decided to add a PayPal donation button to my sites, so
> > people can donate money for me in exchange for benefiting from the fruits
> > of my labour. In order to accept credit cards donations PayPal requires
> > two things:
> >
> > I recently opened an account at FIBI and they told me that in order to
> > get an international credit card I need to reserve 15,000 NIS. I don't
> > have this kind of money at the moment, and since I need a PayPal account
> > to collect it, I have a chicken and egg problem. But I figured out a way
> > to resolve it.
> >
> > If you feel that you know me well and that my work is worthy, please
> > consider giving me a personal loan of several 1,000's NIS. I will use it
> > to set up my PayPal account and to eventually gather enough money to pay
> > it back. (Possibly with some interest).
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance,

--

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 23:06:50 +0200

> Is this a phishing email?

Hi Gadi!

It isn't a phishing E-mail. I'm just looking for a personal loan in order to 
start financing a credit card. I'm asking for 15,000 NIS max, not more. And 
it's really me - Shlomi Fish. I'm not trying to get anyone bank's account, 
just give them my account details so they can contribute money.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 23:29:36 +0200

> I don't want to add ads to my site.

However, what you are trying to do is much worse than adding ads to your
Web site.  You could add ads to your site until they earn you the 15K
NIS (plus whatever amount you need to cover income tax and national
insurance over that income) you need, and then remove the ads replacing
them by the PayPal button.

By Pareto's Law, it is possible that you'll earn large part of your Web
site's ad income potential by adding ads only to the most-visited pages,
so more rarely-used pages won't be burdened with the ads.
                                            --- Omer
-- 
Sent from a PC running a top secret test version of Windows 97.
My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:25:28 +0200

> 2. An account in a U.S. bank.

I assume you need just one of these, not both? If you need just one, it's
good you chose to try option #1 - you can forget about option #2.

> I have a chicken and egg problem. But I figured out a way to resolve it.

Have you considered other options before coming to us with such an
unbelievable request? Here are other options I can think of:

1. Try other banks or other credit card companies. Often, they will agree
   to give you good terms (and a credit card), even if you're broke, if
   someone else vouches for you. For young people, this is typically your
   parents. Have you considered opening an account at the branch your
   parents have an account, or at one they are known?

2. Ask you parents, sister, uncle, cousin, close friend, or who knows who,
   that already has a credit card, to use theirs. You can promise them that
   they will only *get* money to that credit card - you won't charge them
   any money. But obviously you'll need to ask someone close for such a
   favor - don't try to ask people on a mailing list ;-)

One of these options is what every young adult I know did, in the beginning
of his or her banking "carreer".

> (Possibly with some interest).

Sounds like what Suha Arafat asked of me when she had $100,000,000 to
smuggle out of the country of her husbad's hidden money. Then she just
took the $5000 I gave her, and disappeared! :-) (it it isn't clear, I'm
joking...)

But I guess you're not phishing - you're fish-ing! (sorry, had to use that
pun..).

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Tuesday, Nov 8 2005, 6 Heshvan 5766
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |How do you tell when a pineapple is ready
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |to eat? It picks up its knife and fork

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:56:45 +0200

On Monday 07 November 2005 23:29, Omer Zak wrote:
> Web site.  

Why what I'm trying to do is much worse than adding ads to my web site?

> You could add ads to your site until they earn you the 15K 

I see. However, I may still need to have an international credit card to add 
ads. And besides, the revenue generated by ads is incredibly small.

> so more rarely-used pages won't be burdened with the ads.

And how exactly will I determine what they are? And how will I instruct my 
software to add them there? I'd rather just add them to all the pages of my 
sites.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:06:08 +0200

On Tuesday 08 November 2005 09:25, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 07, 2005, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Need Personal 
> good you chose to try option #1 - you can forget about option #2.

I don't know - it's possible I need both. As for #2, I can get an account 
there, either from an online filling of the details or from an American bank 
that my Israeli bank has contacts with.

> Have you considered other options 

Yes, I did.

> before coming to us with such an 

Why is it unbelievable?

>    parents have an account, or at one they are known?

I want the FIBI bank, because they have good support for Mozilla, and are also 
well-aware of standards.

>    favor - don't try to ask people on a mailing list ;-)

I could try to get my father to use his credit card. However, last time he had 
some resistance to give PayPal his credit card number out of fear they'll 
abuse it.

> took the $5000 I gave her, and disappeared! :-) (it it isn't clear, I'm

Heh.

> But I guess you're not phishing - you're fish-ing! (sorry, had to use that

I'm EvilPHishing....:

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030803&mode=classic

and see the icon at:

http://www.shlomifish.org/

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:44:10 +0200

Hello Shlomi,

> Why what I'm trying to do is much worse than adding ads to my web site?

I am leaving to others to respond to this.
My only comment:  I added ads to my own Web site.  I received exactly 0
nasty comments about this, even though I publicized messages in E-mail
and discussion forums, which have the indirect effect of promoting this
Web site (<promotion type="shameful self">anyone interested in deafness
related information is invited to browse
http://www.zak.co.il/deaf-info/old/</promotion>).

> ads. And besides, the revenue generated by ads is incredibly small.

Google AdSense did not ask for a credit card when I registered for this
service.  They do allow their and your banks to get a nice cut in bank
charges, because they send the money in cheques to postal address which
you provide.

The ad revenue is small, but seems to be enough to pay for your Web site
if your content is sufficiently interesting, you have at least 1000 hits
a day and have a well-targetted audience.

> software to add them there? I'd rather just add them to all the pages of my 

Your Web hosting service should have been providing you with tools which
determine how many visitors a day you have and how many times each page
got hit (Actcom, for example, provides this using webalizer).

How to add ads:  read help information in http://www.google.com/adsense/
                                                    --- Omer
-- 
Sent from a PC running a top secret test version of Windows 97.
My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:48:05 +0200

> that my Israeli bank has contacts with.

Don't be too optimistic. Getting a US bank account is not as simple as you
might believe, if you're do not have an American social security number.
You'll see what I mean when you try to do it. In short, don't even try, you
will fail.

> > unbelievable request? Here are other options I can think of:

Because you're asking people to loan you 15,000 shekels. This is what loan-
sharks do, not ordinary people on a mailing list...

Are you aware that if you loan 15,000 shekels with 10% yearly interest (this
is about what you can expect to get from a bank - friendly loan sharks will
ask for twice), the interest is 1,500 shekels a year, or 125 shekels a month?
Are you sure you're going to make more than 125 shekels a month, just to
return the interest on the loan?

> I want the FIBI bank, because they have good support for Mozilla, and are also 

This is bullshit (sorry). Instead of trying another bank (Leumi and Poalim
both have adaquate support for Mozilla - and, have you heard of an... ATM?
or PHONE CALL?), you're asking for... people to give you 15,000 shekels?
This makes absolutely no sense. It's like running in the street looking for
a cow, instead of opening the refrigerator to see if there's any milk there.

Like I said, if you go to a bank branch that knows you or your family, and
your parents even agree to vouch for you, you should have no trouble getting
an international credit card. You can even ask for an international credit
card for a limited time (say, 3 months) - banks find it easier to agree to
doing this. I got one when I was 19 for a trip abroad, and I don't remember
any particular hassles (and I didn't have 15,000 shekels in my account).

> some resistance to give PayPal his credit card number out of fear they'll 

Then try to convince him otherwise. It will be far easier than trying to
convince strangers to give you thousands of shekels!
(of course, if someone already loaned you the money, then I'm wrong. But
my guess is that nobody gave you one red cent, and I'm trying to help you
find better options).

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Tuesday, Nov 8 2005, 6 Heshvan 5766
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Life is what happens to you while you're
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |busy making other plans. - John Lennon

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:58:28 +0200

On Mon, Nov 07, 2005, Orna Agmon wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] Need Personal Loans so I can Collect Online Donations":
> DEAR SHLOMI,
> 
> MY NAME IS MS ORNA AGMON.
> 
> I wanted to inform you that the Nigerian scam already has a special folder
> in my spam folder, and that my spam filter claims that you got your text a
> bit wrong.

Indeed. I suggest you go to the next Annual Nigerian Email Conference to
learn how to make your mails more convincing. The previous conference,
which you can see in http://j-walk.com/other/conf/, discussed such enlightening
issues as "The effectiveness of using all UPPERCASE characters".

:-)

But seriously now, please see the *serious* reply I sent you in hackers-il
on how you can actually do what you want in a more reasonable way.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Tuesday, Nov 8 2005, 6 Heshvan 5766
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |ech`echo xiun|tr nu oc|sed
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |'sx\([sx]\)\([xoi]\)xo un\2\1 is xg'`ol

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:45:19 +0200

On Tuesday 08 November 2005 12:44, Omer Zak wrote:
> Hello Shlomi,
>
> > > However, what you are trying to do is much worse than adding ads to
> > > your Web site.
> >

OK.

> > I see. However, I may still need to have an international credit card to
> > add ads. And besides, the revenue generated by ads is incredibly small.
>

Thanks, I took your advice and registered at AdSense. I received my acceptance 
E-mail today, and set up the ads:

> > > site's ad income potential by adding ads only to the most-visited
> > > pages, so more rarely-used pages won't be burdened with the ads.
> >
> > And how exactly will I determine what they are? And how will I instruct
> > my software to add them there? I'd rather just add them to all the pages
> > of my sites.
>

Yes, I can analyse it. But I don't want to bother. I added ads to all the 
pages.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:04:09 +0200

On Tuesday 08 November 2005 14:48, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 08, 2005, Shlomi Fish wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] Need 
Personal Loans so I can Collect Online Donations":
> > > I assume you need just one of these, not both? If you need just one,
> > > it's good you chose to try option #1 - you can forget about option #2.
> >
> > there, either from an online filling of the details or from an American
> > bank that my Israeli bank has contacts with.
>

Aviram Jenik was able to do it, and he doesn't have an American social 
security number:

http://linmagazine.co.il/node/view/6987

My parents had American bank accounts when they stayed in the U.S. and they 
aren't American citizens.

So what makes you think I "will fail"? 

> Are you aware that if you loan 15,000 shekels with 10% yearly interest
> (this is about what you can expect to get from a bank - friendly loan
> sharks will ask for twice), the interest is 1,500 shekels a year, or 125
> shekels a month? Are you sure you're going to make more than 125 shekels a
> month, just to return the interest on the loan?

By interest, I mean that I will return some more of the money, not more of it 
as time goes by. And I asked from some loans from a friends, so I can get 
ahead. 

>
> > > 1. Try other banks or other credit card companies. Often, they will
> > > agree to give you good terms (and a credit card), even if you're broke,
> > > if someone else vouches for you. For young people, this is typically
> > > your parents. Have you considered opening an account at the branch your
> > I want the FIBI bank, because they have good support for Mozilla, and are
> > also well-aware of standards.
>
> or PHONE CALL?), 

It's the Internet age. I live, eat and breathe the Internet.

> you're asking for... people to give you 15,000 shekels? 
> your parents even agree to vouch for you, you should have no trouble
> getting an international credit card. You can even ask for an international
> credit card for a limited time (say, 3 months) - banks find it easier to
> agree to doing this. I got one when I was 19 for a trip abroad, and I don't
> remember any particular hassles (and I didn't have 15,000 shekels in my
> account).

I see. I'll see what my options are.

>
> > I could try to get my father to use his credit card. However, last time
> > he had some resistance to give PayPal his credit card number out of fear
> > they'll abuse it.
>

BTW, I didn't ask that someone necessarily give me the entire sum. You may 
also give me part of it.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:40:26 +0200

> http://linmagazine.co.il/node/view/6987

How do you know??

Please don't answer, this is highly off topic. But, do you seriously believe
that an American bank and open an account for you "after you fill some forms
over the Internet" (like you claimed) - all this when an Israeli bank won't
even trust you?

I think you've seen too many movies where a person walks to a swiss bank
with a suitcase of money saying "I want to open an account". There are two
major differences in this case: American banking is different from Swiss,
and you do not (unfortunately) have a suitcase full of money.

> aren't American citizens.

But I am guessing they worked there, and had a social security number (as
well as a provable "life" in the states - a job, a place of residence, etc.).
Ask them how they opened an account. Also ask them how hard it is in the
states for a peron without a "credit record" (like you) to get his first
credit card.

> So what makes you think I "will fail"? 

Because I tried, and failed. (I didn't try very hard, but I did try, and
the simple answer I got was: no social security number, no service - go
get a social security number first). I assume that this requirement is not
a matter of *law*, but rather a convenience to the bank - a social security
number is a convenient index (like our id number), and it gives them more
assurance that you're not some "visitor for a day" trying to defraud them
or something. Also, my experience was 10 years ago, so the laws or practices
might have changed since.

Doing a google search, I stumbled across http://www.livetaxfree.com/howto1.htm
selling a guide to how to open a bank account without a social security
number - so I guess it's not trivial.

> as time goes by. And I asked from some loans from a friends, so I can get 

I don't understand what you're saying. It doesn't matter *when* you pay the
interest - as time goes by or at one bulk payment at the end. In either case,
the loan will cost you at least 125 shekels a month (unless you find someone
nice enough to lose money on the loan to you). What I was saying is that if
you don't plan to earn 125 shekels a month from this technique, then you
are better off not even doing it.

> It's the Internet age. I live, eat and breathe the Internet.

Shlomi, you're behaving like a child. When you need a doctor, do you choose
a good one, or one that will treat you over the Internet? When you went to
a university, did you choose a good one that accepts you, or one that has
the nicest Internet site?

The Internet site is a factor in choosing a bank, but there are more important
ones. A bank was not willing to give you a credit card is far worse than a
bad Internet site. AND, like I said, both Poalim's and Leumi's sites *do*
work properly with Mozilla. I'm not saying they work perfectly, but they do
work.

> I see. I'll see what my options are.

Good luck :)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |    Wednesday, Nov 9 2005, 7 Heshvan 5766
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Willpower: The ability to eat only one
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |salted peanut.

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:35:00 +0200

> in my spam folder, and that my spam filter claims that you got your text a

What is your spam filter if I may be prudent enough to ask? Why don't you 
whitelist mail from mailing list which you know that are subscribers-only?

> You are cross posting in order to publically ask the public to create a
> fraud of the bank?
>

This is not a fraud. I was trying to get a private loan.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Gadi Evron <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 15:39:53 +0200

> This is not a fraud. I was trying to get a private loan.

On a public mailing list.

Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem with your way of reaching your 
friends... but generally asking for money, and especially when it's for 
a private endevour, is better done more discreetly.

I doubt you had much success?

I had a personal problem with your post because on one hand, I wanted to 
turn into the flamer in me and teach you a "lesson" and on the other, 
hey, why should I care about one post to the list from a regular member 
which is private and self-serving? You stated it is and I may send a 
private email here as well one day.

Your choice of sending it here is questionable at best and might have 
best gone without comment, instead, people humoured you and tried to 
help by offering alternatives. You should expect at least some back-lash 
for taking on a 419-er look, whatever the true intention is.

It was stupid, imo, but I wish you all the best. Let us ALL stop 
discussing it now.

	Gadi.

-- 
My blog: http://blogs.securiteam.com/?author=6

"The third principle of sentient life is the capacity for self-sacrifice 
--- the conscious ability to override evolution and self-preservation 
for a cause, a friend, a loved one."
	-- Draal, "A Voice in the Wilderness", Babylon 5.