Subject: What to do if you find that you did business with a spammer?

From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:46:55 +0200

Recently I got spam E-mail advertising service provided by a company
(which I'll leave nameless for now), with whom I almost subcontracted
few months ago to do a project for them.

This raises the following questions of principle:
Suppose you do subcontract work for a company.  Then you find that you
and other people got spam from that same company.
1. Would this tarnish your own reputation by your being associated with
the spammer?
2. Assuming that you do not mind the loss of contracted for payment,
what is involved in stopping work for them immediately?
3. If you are employee of a company which turns out to be spammer, can
you resign and demand severance pay (your employment conditions
deteriorated because your neighbors and friends are upset with you)?

It seems that future contracts would need to contain a clause promising
that neither side would engage in spamming, even if they are not
directly related to Internet service provision.
                                                      --- Omer
-- 
Sent from a PC running a top secret test version of Windows 97.
My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

---

From: guy keren <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:14:24 +0200 (IST)

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, Omer Zak wrote:

> Suppose you do subcontract work for a company.Then you find that you

with idiot people it might have. on the other hand, the social-awareness
of anti-spam people seems to be higher then the average (just my
non-methodological observations) - so they'll probably be able to
diss-associate you from that company.

> what is involved in stopping work for them immediately?

my _guess_ is you'll have to add such a clause in your future contracts,
to be able to do that ;)

since spamming is not yet illegal in israel (it isn't, right?) - i don't
think you have a good legal case here.

> deteriorated because your neighbors and friends are upset with you)?

just have an 'auto-severance payment' clause in your contract (based on
some law that sais it can be done, and then you get severance payment even
if your resign, unless you performed some criminal act or something
similar. it has a down side - you'll not get higher severance pay if your
salary raised - each year the employer puts money based on your
then-current salary in the kupat gemel/bituah menahalim, and you'll always
get just what was accumulated there - no matter if you resign or are
fired).

> directly related to Internet service provision.

what if they perform an illegal act? what if their sales people lie to
customers about their products? what if they constantly deliver
lousy products and in great delay? spamming is only one thing they can do
that might reflect on you...

-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:31:10 +0200

> few months ago to do a project for them.

For me, something even worse happened: I got spam from a company in which
I was working in! This was genuine spam, not some company-related mail (i.e.,
I got it to an email they weren't supposed to know about).
> 1. Would this tarnish your own reputation by your being associated with

Indeed. This is why I immediately wrote to the CEO about this incident.
His "excuse" was that some sort of distributer or whatever sent out this
spam, and that it didn't come from within the company, and he can't do
anything about it.

> deteriorated because your neighbors and friends are upset with you)?

I have no idea, nor do I care, about these legalities. In most "high-tech"
companies, "severance pay" works through a "bituch menahalim", which you
get regardless of whether you quit or get fired, so this is not an issue.

> directly related to Internet service provision.

I don't think this is at all specific to spamming - the company might be
involved in other issues you consider immoral and you'll also find it out
later. For example, imagine your company sells stuff to "bad" regimes
somewhere, your company involved in racist or sexual discrimination,
your company making use of child-labor or sweat shops in its china branch,
your company making it a habit to lie to customers and give them shoddy
products, your company doing experiments on monkeys, and so on, and so on.
All of these can also disgrace you personally (image, for example, how
employees of Remedia must feel!), and any of these can cause you to decide
that that's not a company you want to work for - and you obviously can't
include a list in your contract of everything that you find immoral...

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |   Thursday, Nov 17 2005, 15 Heshvan 5766
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Martin Luther King said "I have a dream",
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |not "I have a plan".

---

From: guy keren <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:37:57 +0200 (IST)

> get regardless of whether you quit or get fired, so this is not an issue.

this has nothing to do with it being in "bituach menahalim". it has to do
with norms, and with usage of a specific clause in the contract (which i
talked about in my previous email).

the company may, if it wishes, withdraw this money in case you resigned
(after paying 35% tax on it). i've seen it done (it happened to me once
- and not only to me).

-- 
guy

---

From: Uri Even-Chen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:03:43 +0200

> few months ago to do a project for them.

Happened to me many times, with many companies I worked with, almost
worked with, or was a customer or them.  Unfortunately, many companies
in Israel are involved in spamming - usually via third parties who send
spam on their behalf (and charge money for it).  These third parties
often claim that their mailing lists are legitimate (not spam).

> spam, and that it didn't come from within the company, and he can't do

Very common response.  Look above.

> include a list in your contract of everything that you find immoral...

Very true.  There are many immoral things a company can do, which can
make you decide not to work with them anymore.  Spam is only one of
them.  Some of these things are legal, some are not (and many are in the
grey area).  I think spam is also in the grey area - it's illegal in
many countries.  I think it's enough for you to decide you don't want to
work with them anymore.

> think you have a good legal case here.

It's illegal in many countries, and I think that's enough.  It's also
considered unethical.  You have the right not to work with a company
which is doing something illegal, unethical or immoral.

I think the general rule is that you never know in advance what a
company would do, so you should be prepared for the worst.  You should
always be prepared to resign or stop doing business with a company that
is doing immoral things.  It's up to you to decide what is moral and
what is not - not up to the law.  Even if something is legal
(experiments on monkeys), you might decide you don't want to work for a
company that is involved in it.

By the way, I try not to work for companies that lets people smoke in
their office, for these reasons:
- Smoking in work is illegal.
- I hate smoke.
- If they do something illegal, they might do other illegal things in
the future.

I also think that companies who don't respect their employees (for
example, by letting people smoke in the office) are not worth working
for.  And also companies who don't respect their customers (for example,
by sending them spam).

On the other hand, sometimes I don't have enough energy to fight and I
give up.  For example, I got spam from Pelephone, and I'm their customer
(I got their phone from a company I work with).  I was too lazy to
change so I'm still their customer (I don't pay the bill; this company
does).  Do you think I should change?  And what would I do if tomorrow I
get spam from the next phone company?

By the way, I read that Coca-Cola stopped working with Pelephone because
of their CEO role in Club Market.  It's another example of people who
don't want to do business with immoral people.

Best Regards,

Uri Even-Chen
Speedy Net
Raanana, Israel.

E-mail: [email-masked]
Phone: +972-9-7715013
Website: www.uri.co.il
--------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Uri Even-Chen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:19:16 +0200

[I'm sending this message again, cause I didn't receive it the first time].

Best Regards,

Uri Even-Chen
Speedy Net
Raanana, Israel.

E-mail: [email-masked]
Phone: +972-9-7715013
Website: www.uri.co.il

---

From: guy keren <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:08:59 +0200 (IST)

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, Uri Even-Chen wrote:

> It's illegal in many countries, and I think that's enough.It's also
> considered unethical.You have the right not to work with a company

since spamming is not _illegal_ in _israel_, it most likely can NOT be
used as a valid _legal_ reason to break out of a contract between a
_israeli_ person and a _israeli_ company.

please do NOT take what i write out of context - the original poster
didn't ask about the morality of the issue - he asked about the legality
of the issue - and the legality in israel, not in "many countries".

-- 
guy

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From: Uri Even-Chen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:42:51 +0200

> of the issue - and the legality in israel, not in "many countries".

I think it is legal to stop working for someone who is doing something
unethical or immoral.  But if you have a contract and break it, you
might lose money and/or be sued.  I think this issue has never been
handled in an Israeli court yet.  And Israeli courts DO take in account
similar cases in other countries.

Anyway, if you want to be sure, put a clause in a contract before you
sign it.  It's better that it will be general, and not only about spam.
It should include any unethical or immoral action.

Uri.

---

From: guy keren <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:27:49 +0200 (IST)

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Uri Even-Chen wrote:

> unethical or immoral.But if you have a contract and break it, you
> might lose money and/or be sued.I think this issue has never been
> handled in an Israeli court yet.And Israeli courts DO take in account
> sign it.It's better that it will be general, and not only about spam.

and lets see you manage to define a general clause that any client will
agree to sign. ("i commit to delivering the project in 6 month time,
unless your company does anything during this period, that i find to be
immoral, even if it has nothing to do directly with me - in such a case,
i'll give you the half-finished material and will be free from completing
the project". in other words "if i fill like it, i'll say that your
selling software as non-free software is immoral in my opinion, and will
leave you after 2 month").

no, i don't think this approach can work.

for the exact same reason, a company cannot fire an employee because he
did something immorla (e.g. they found out he's gay and they are orthodox
jews, or they found out he's a right-winged and lives in a settlement, and
the owners are extremist lef-wingers).

-- 
guy

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:51:43 +0200

On Friday 18 November 2005 14:27, guy keren wrote:
> > > didn't ask about the morality of the issue - he asked about the
> > > legality of the issue - and the legality in israel, not in "many
> > > countries".
> >

Well, actually, what you describe is subjective morality. I.e: something that 
someone dims as immoral. What may potentially exist is also "objective 
morality" or "absolute morality". I.e: a kind of morality that can be deduced 
from logic and from more basic facts and assumptions (such as the biological 
nature of men and women), and as thus have a solid base.

Some philosophies believe that such systems of Morals exist and advocate one 
in particular. Nonetheless, these systems are often very different. The nice 
thing about God is that there are so many different Gods you can adhere to.

Logic is a system for reaching conclusions from a set of axioms. Hopefully, 
it's also a system for non-contradictory identification. Nevertheless, 
applied logic is much more complicated and error-prone than purely 
mathematical deduction, and is subject to many fallacies ( see 
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ ), as well as non-sequitors, 
equivocations, evasions, and other logical problems. Objectivists claim that 
Immanuel Kant's writings are filled with such deliberate errors, and I was 
able to disprove several things he said based on simple deduction and "common 
sense". (without having read all of his reasoning)

I give the traditional Neo-Tech definitions of moral and ethical here:

http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/obj-oss/obj-oss/c35.html

I consider them to be very scientific and obvious, but then again I aim to be 
a realist[1] intellectual and it is possible that others will not find them 
as obvious, especially if they are tainted by some belief system.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

[1] - "realist" does not mean the opposite of spiritual in this context. It 
just means aiming to perform actions that bring the most material and/or 
spiritual gain, rather than beat around the bush, or perform actions that are 
harmful to oneself or others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      [email-masked]
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

95% of the programmers consider 95% of the code they did not write, in the
bottom 5%.

---

From: Uri Even-Chen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 22:44:20 +0200

> the owners are extremist lef-wingers).

I think an employee does have the right to resign for whatever reason he
wants to (even without a reason) - otherwise it's considered slavery.
The laws in Israel protect employees against being fired without a
legitimate reason (as usually, laws protect the weak, and employees are
usually weaker than employers).  So if you're employed in a company, and
find out that your company is doing something that you consider immoral
- you have the right to resign.

On the other hand, if a company (or a manager) finds out that an
employee is doing something immoral - it doesn't always mean they can
legally fire him.  So if you find out that your employee is sending spam
(for example), in his spare time from home - I'm not sure you can fire
him.  But if he's doing it from the company's office or using any
company resources - I'm quite sure that it's legal to fire him.

By the way, there are many ways to get around this law and fire people
for another reason or make their life miserable until they resign.
Employees do it all the time.  Sometimes they get sued - most of the
times they don't.  And even if they get sued they don't always lose.

> no, i don't think this approach can work.

Maybe you should enter a clause about your right to resign (or stop
working for the company if you're a supplier), and the terms of
resignation if you do resign for whatever reason.  But even if you don't
have such a clause in your contract - I think you do have the right to
resign if you find out that the company is doing something which you
consider immoral.  Spam included.

Let's take it one step further.  Suppose you find out that your boss is
a serial killer, and/or a former Nazi from second world war (but was
never convicted in court).  Do you have the right to resign or stop
supplying to this company?  I think you do.  They may sue you, but you
will probably win.

It might be a different situation if you're a monopoly, such as Bezek or
Microsoft or Hevrat Hashmal - in this case I don't think you have the
right to refuse to supply to someone.  But I'm not a lawyer, you should
consult one if you need to.

Uri.