Subject: [Cross-posted from Linux-IL] Re: DMCA, SSSCA/CBDTPA related laws in Israel? (fwd)

From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 12:29:12 +0300 (EET DST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 12:06:30 +0200
From: Shachar Shemesh <[email-masked]>
Cc: Linux-IL mailing list <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: DMCA, SSSCA/CBDTPA related laws in Israel?

erez Doron wrote:

>>a new, dedicated, mailing list. To subscribe, send an empy email to
>>[email-masked]. I suggest taking all of
>>this discussion there, so as not to litter both lists with off topic issues.
>>
>
>why ?
>
>there are a lot of threads not of any intreset to me, i do not ask to open a
>different mailing list for each thread !
>
I did not ask to open one. I opened one. As I am paying for the
colocation, disk space, domain and administration of that list, I feel
it is perfectly within my rights to open the list and invite people.

I think this particular thread deserves a seperate list because it is:
A. Very important to me.
B. Very off topic
C. I will not subscribe to a mailing list only to discuss a certain
thread that is off topic there as well.

 From experience, these mailinst lists tend to not be high traffic, and
therefor do not require a large overhead to subscribe. I think taking
this subject seriously requires that there is a place dedicated to
coordinating the effort. Hence - I opened a mailing list. You can all
vote me wrong by the simple act of not subscribing.

>
>i think that legal status that may affect people on this list may be of
>intererst.
>
If people are interested, they are welcome to subscribe to the new list.
Like I said, it is unlikely to become a high volume one, and
subscription will not cost you much in terms of personal bandwidth.

>
>and i think they are not off-topic ( lwn speaks about them all the time, maybe
>even too much )
>
This topic is not Linux specific, and only broadly Linux related. I
think it is fair to say it is rather off topic. Not off topic enough for
me to complain about it being here, but certanly off topic enough for
any complaints about someone donating their server space for dedicated
discussion to seem a bit strange in my eyes.

I don't know what the charter for Hackers-IL is. If I understood it
correctly, NOTHING is considered off topic there, which is precisely the
reason I don't want to subscribe to that list. It will require too much
personal bandwidth (even reading the title of a thread requires time).

>
>
>just my 2 (what is the cents of euro ? ).
>
They are called cents. These europeens have no imagination.....

>erez.
Just my 9 agorout (two cents). Not much, but enough to pay for my own
mailing list ;-)

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:07:47 +0300

> >different mailing list for each thread !

I agree. It's silly to have a dozen different mailing lists with exactly
the same people on all of them. The topics of discussion on (for example)
hackers-il are very diverse, and we tend to only have 1 or at most 2
discussions ongoing at a time. I don't see what putting each discussion
in a separate mailing list achieve, besides a growing number of cross-posting
(which is exactly what happened here, with a message cross-posted to
hackers-il and linux-il), confusion, and flames about people posting in the
"wrong" mailing list.

No, I'm not going to to subscribe to yet another mailing list with the
same population as hackers-il. This is why I didn't subscribe to philosophy-il
(Shlomi, if you have a different population than hackers-il, tell me and
I'll subscribe), and why Shachar's antispam-il is also completely inactive
(Shachar and a few other people insisted that it is a criminal offense to
discuss anti-spam issues on hackers-il or linux-il, which is why that mailing
list was born and had about 20 postings in its whole life time).

> it is perfectly within my rights to open the list and invite people.

Sure :) But it is also within our rights not to join it.

> I think this particular thread deserves a separate list because it is:
> A. Very important to me.
> B. Very off topic

Other than being political (and therefore a bit sensitive), how is it off-
topic? A large part of linux-il is about free software advocacy. It's about
Israel. It might not be the most linux-specific issue in the world, but it's
certainly not "very off topic". Other Linux-related forums are constantly
discussion such issues as well.

> vote me wrong by the simple act of not subscribing.

On the contrary. Every mailing list subscription has overhead: keeping
filtering scripts up-to-date, remembering how to unsubscribe (like the
case of the "iglu" mailing list, which was dead for years and suddenly
started sending spam), and so on. So I'd much rather have an extra thread
on a large mailing list I subscribe to than to subscribe to yet another
mailing list (I'm already subscribed to 80, most of them dead or dying).

This is of course assuming this thread will run its course (say, 20 mails
at most) and die off. If it becomes a recurrent thread, with 50 messages
each month, then yes, we can split it off to a different mailing list.

This is, for example, what I did with the ivrix-discuss mailing list:
discussions regarding Hebrew support were a recurring topic on linux-il,
but not more than (say) 10% of the traffic there. Many people who wanted
to discuss Hebrew support did not want to subscribe to the whole of linux-il,
and wanted this topic to be spun-off as a separate mailing list; And on the
other hand, many people on linux-il only cared about discussion Linux
technicalities (how to install this-and-that, etc.) and admittingly did
not want to hear about Hebrew support.

> subscription will not cost you much in terms of personal bandwidth.

They are also welcome, as far as I'm concerned at least, to continue this
thread on the existing mailing lists.

> personal bandwidth (even reading the title of a thread requires time).

Hackers-il is, as far as I'm concerned, more about being a community than
being a place to ask questions on a specific question. People have been
talking about writing stories, free software, weird programming languages,
natural languages, shooting rubberbands (!), Linux and other operating
systems, Physics, and a lot of other stuff. The only common thing among
these things is that they are things that interest (at least some of) the
computer-savvy population that decided to subscribe to that list. Most of
it is somehow related to computers or "hacking", but some of it is much more
loosely related to computers (e.g., stuff found on the Internet, stuff about
society and technology, and so on).

> They are called cents. These europeens have no imagination.....

Yes, but the French got a special permission to continue them centim, because
"cent" in French means "1 hundred" :)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |        Friday, Apr 5 2002, 23 Nisan 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Are you still here? The message is over.
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |Shoo! Go away!

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:43:36 +0300 (IDT)

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:

> I'll subscribe)

AFAICT, the Philosophy-IL's subscribers are so-far more or less a subset
of Hackers-IL and/or Linux-IL. But more importantly, they are this subset
which is interested in "purely" (i.e: non computer or science related)
philosophical discussions in English. And the latter were declared
off-topic in Hackers-IL.

Note that I do not limit Philosophy-IL to be a subset of Hackers-IL or
Linux-IL. I would be very glad to have non-Linux-oriented people there. I
just did not have time to propagating it further, yet.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

BTW, for the record I also think that freedom-il is a bad idea that has a
very small chance to gain a lot of momentum. Such discussion are
definitely not OT on hackers-IL and probably not on Linux-IL either, and I
don't see the point of starting an entire mailing list dedicated to this
subject.

> , and why Shachar's antispam-il is also completely inactive
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email-masked]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        [email-masked]
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

"Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
"Wait a second - is n a natural number?"