Subject: Slightly OT: Israel as a police state, and contemporary politics

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:33:10 +0200 (IST)

I rode my bike through the Yarqon Park today, like I usually do twice a
day. As I was going to cross the playground, I was halted by a soldier,
and was asked for an identifying card. I told him I did not have any, and
he called his commander.

I waited for the commander for a few minutes, and I noticed that he asked
other people, who looked perfectly innocent and harmless to me for ID
too. Eventually, the commander came and he asked me some questions, and
instructed me to follow a different route. I did.

I really don't want to start taking my ID card when I ride my bike. I
might as well leave it in my biking back-pack, etc. I, and the other
people that were questioned for an ID, did not look especially harmful, or
seemed like they would detonate a bomb or start shooting at everybody.

I asked the soldier why was all this care taken, and he told me that I
should accept it if I desire peace [="Sheqet"]. But I have trouble
considering a situation where innocent people are interogated and harassed
as a very peaceful existence. Ironically, that's exactly what Arafat and
his ilk desire in the first place.

How many of you read the beginning of "The Eternal Jew" which I posted
here? I don't know because I did not receive any comment. I proposed
there a better way to run Israel, so in the long term most of its
political problems would be eliminated. Do you think
philosophical/political discussions are off-topic for this mailing list?
After all, "The Eternal Jew" is a hack, and we are not called
"computer-hackers-il".

Instead of Israelis blaming the present situation on the Palestinians (and
vice versa), the Israelis should look at their own back yard, and see what
constitutional and logistic laws discriminate against the Israeli Arabs
and the Palestinians. Israel does not have a clean record in this regard:

1. A Jew has a much easier time to become an Israeli citizen than a
non-Jew.

2. Israeli arabs are not drafted into the army.

3. Israeli arabs do not recieve national security. (claimfully, as a
result) Orthodox Jews who do not serve in the army either, do.

4. Arab municiplaties recieve much less funding than Jewish ones.

5. The present Israeli Prime Minister is a war criminal.

Do you believe Palestinians should think everthing is usual considering
all this? In a political struggle one should make sure that there's
nothing wrong on his side. Perfectly nothing. Even the smallest detail can
bite you in unexpected places.

Even if one rejects the so-called "objective" ethics, one must agree that
the Law of a country cannot discriminate against race, belief, gender or
other such factor.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

There is no IGLU Cabal! The greatest common denominator of its members is
that they are all human beings. This is also the GCD of humanity, which
indicates the border between the two is very vague.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        [email-masked]
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

"Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
"Wait a second - is n a natural number?"

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:50:49 +0200

> and was asked for an identifying card. I told him I did not have any, and

The law in Israel says you must carry an ID at all times. It sucks, and doesn't
exist in some other countries (e.g., the US), but it does here.
Note that a drivers license is a legal alternative for your "teudat zehut"
(in everything execept voting), so I always carry my drivers license instead.
It's small enough to put together with a credit card, a little bit of cash,
and keys I always carry around.

Another issue is since when does a soldier have any right to tell you what
to do. We're not officially in a state of war, so as far as I know soldiers
have absolutely no jurisdiction over civilians. Of course it doesn't mean I'd
want to mess around with a hot-headed and thick-headed 19-year-old carrying
an M16... When I visited Russia a few years ago, I was warned to beware of
policemen - that more people were injured by policeman the previous year than
by criminals. I hope it doesn't get to this in Israel too...

> instructed me to follow a different route. I did.

If he instructed you to follow a different route, maybe there was something
dangerous about your originial route? Maybe there was a bomb threat, or they
knew a terrorist was supposed to walk through there, or something? If that
was the case, these soldiers actually did you a favor...

> seemed like they would detonate a bomb or start shooting at everybody.

Unfortunately, the people who *do* detonate a bomb or start shooting don't
necessarily look "harmful". They don't have horns, don't look like Satan,
and don't carry a "shahid" sign. If anything, they look like Arabs. Do you
suggest it should be ok to harass people who look like Arabs, but not people
(like yourself) who don't?

> result) Orthodox Jews who do not serve in the army either, do.

This is plain wrong. Doesn't the Israeli army protect the Arab citizens
as well? Didn't they get gas masks, just like everyone else, during the
gulf war? The enemy planes, chemical weapons, and so on, can kill Arabs
in Israel just like they can kill Jews, and it is the duty of the army to
protect the entire population.

Besides a few hideous incidents (like the one in Kfar Kasem in the 50s, if
I remember correctly), the army sort-of upholds its purpose.

Note that I'm talking about the army, not police.

> 4. Arab municiplaties recieve much less funding than Jewish ones.

This appears true, but I never saw any statistics showing this to be true.
I did see other statistics showing the reverse (and how corrupt mayors are
taking the money for themselves and for their friends), so I no longer
know what to believe.

You can start by changing smaller things. I saw from experience of someone
close to me how the Technion has certain "laws" making differ criterions
for accepting young people who didn't go to the army, as compared to Atudaim
or people after the army. The Technion claims these rules have to do with
them having to manage with a deluge of Atudaim, but in reality, it is quite
clear that these rules are an excellent way of keeping Arabs out (or at
least giving them a hard time, so they'd go to other universities).
Many other places look for people "after army service", "with full army
service" or give incentives to such people - even when that place has nothing
to do with army experience. Let me tell you, all these rules were not made
for keeping people like Aviv Gefen (who was exempt from the army because of
medical problems, supposedly) out.

Another small you can do for more equality in Israel: please don't ask
soldiers/guards/etc. to only harass people who look like Arabs. Let them
harass you too. Whenever you see a guard, open your bag and let him see it -
don't wait for him to stop only Arabs and make them feel different and
unwelcome.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |        Sunday, Mar 10 2002, 26 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Don't accept your dog's admiration as
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |conclusive evidence that you're wonderful