Subject: RE: [hackers-il] Starting out late :-)

From: Chen Shapira <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:14:48 +0200

> to work on it. Of course, the fact that in Israel school ends around
> 12:00-13:00 which leaves kids *tons* of free time, didn't hurt :)
> 
> So hack away at Perl :)

Compiler theory at high-school?
Some people make me feel that I completly wasted my time during high-school.

I can't remeber doing anything more exciting than hanging out with friends
and some odd jobs (future-telling was my favorite), while some people were
completing their degrees (or gaining equivalent knowledge).

I think this is why I always feel so "behind". I'm working hard to gain
basic knowledge of C and algorithms while most of my frieds were through
with it by the time they began their army service!

Enough with self pity for today, thanks for listening.
Chen.

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From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:31:17 +0200

> Some people make me feel that I completly wasted my time during high-school.

One very important point to remember is that not everyone gets such chances.
Not everyone grew up with a UNIX computer available (especially a decade
ago or more, before Linux). Not everyone has access to good (and very
expensive, unfortunately) computer books. If I had the same kind of curiousity
I have but different circumstances or different parents, it is very likely I
would have learned very little about computers at such an age.

Another important thing to remember: being, say, 6 years, "behind" is NOTHING
in the big scheme of things. When you're 35, do you think it would matter if
you learned C in the age of 10 or age of 20?

The only thing that matters, in the big scheme of things, is your curiosity:
are you studying CS because you're curious about it, or because of irrelevant
reasons like the "big bucks".

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Wednesday, Feb 13 2002, 1 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Cat rule #2: Bite the hand that won't
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |feed you fast enough.

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From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:58:06 +0200 (IST)

> reasons like the "big bucks".

I'd like to second that. To quote Gandhi:

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live
forever."

Neo-Tech believe bilogical immortality could become a reality in our
life-time, especially given proper economical and political conditions.
(let's not start a flame war about this). But even if it isn't you should
assume you can live long enough to enjoy the fruits of your new knoweldge.

One day people may look at us like ancients hackers who programmed in
obscure language like Perl 5, Python 1.5.x, gcc 2.95, etc. Of course, it
is more than possible that all of the technologies that exist today, will
exist in one form or another in the UNIX world of 2020 or 2030. Like what
was said on Fortran: I don't know what the most powerful OS will be in
2050, but it will be a UNIX flavour. After all, UNIX has survived the past
30 years, and still seems strong. And many of tools we use are quite old.

If you have a hard time learning stuff now, it shows you'll have an easier
time learning stuff in the future. Hackers (computer ones or otherwise)
comes in all shapes and sizes and backgrounds. I have been programming in
GW-Basic since I was 10 years, and switched to C/C++ when I was 15. But
the real breakthru in my knowledge came when I started working as a
programmer. Only then, I started taking seriously.

I keep feeling that I am improving as a programmer, and learning new
things all the time. Learning how to program is a process - I'm not sure
people will ever develop the Most Powerful Programming Language (MPPL)
which cannot be superceded by the Even More Powerful (and a bit better
all around) Programming Language.

I'm working on Rindolf now because I want a Perl 5 clone that's cleaner,
more consistent and more fun, but still has the linguistic feel Perl has.
I did not do serious language design before, (all the languages,
configuration languages and protocols I developed were much more mundane)
and I'd like to take the challenge. As opposed to Nadav's HOC, I think
many people will find Rindolf to be highly useful.

One important thing to remember is that, even if you're less experienced,
you are not inferior to anybody. At the moment, I am questioning Larry
Wall's judgement, which I myself think of as one of the greatest CS giants
of all time. Even the most experienced programmers are wrong sometimes.

Also, be proud that you were able to write something, however minor/badly
written/non-interesting-CS-wise/etc. Every code brings you one step
further to the goal of becoming a better programmer. You actually learn
from bad design decisions you made.

That was the philosophy of the "Self-Leading Programmer" by Shlomi Fish.
It was by all means incomplete, buggy and may invoke the Russel Paradox.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

There is no IGLU Cabal! They become so good as programmers, that they
wrote the Automated IGLU Cabal<tm>, which requires no human intervention.
Then they proceed to write the Automated Israeli Government<tm>. Switching
to the latter actually improved the Israeli social, economical and
political map considerably.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        [email-masked]
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

"Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
"Wait a second - is n a natural number?"

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From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:11:53 +0200

On Wed, Feb 13, 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Re: Starting out late :-)":
>...
>...

Substitute "becoming a better programmer" with "enlightenment", and you'll
get 'Zen and the art of computer programming' [1] ;)

[1] That is what happens when you give a Zen-Budhist interpretation to
    Knuth's "the art of computer programming" :)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Wednesday, Feb 13 2002, 1 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |A thing is not necessarily true because a
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |man dies for it. - Oscar Wilde

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From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:23:45 +0200 (IST)

> get 'Zen and the art of computer programming' [1] ;)

Is everything a potential joke to you? ;-)

Well, I don't know too much about Zen or other Oriental philsophies, but I
do know a thing or two about "Common Sense". And it's common knowledge and
quite logical too, that people learn from their mistakes. After you make a
mistake, you say, "Oh I should have done it like this instead." And then
you learn, maybe not forever, but for some time.

Of course, every man should learn on his own. One gains very little
experience from hearing other people tell how they run their lives. You
actually have to build the mistake-avoiding "algorithm" on your own.

Taking a joke too seriously as always (and don't caring too much either
way),

	Shlomi Fish

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From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:52:48 +0200

> Is everything a potential joke to you? ;-)

Sure.
A person who knows how to laugh at himself will never cease to be amused.
:)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Wednesday, Feb 13 2002, 1 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |AlGoreithm, n: Repeating a calculation
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |until a prior desired result is produced.

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From: "Gilad Ben-Yossef" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:40:52 +0200

> Is everything a potential joke to you? ;-)

"On hearing of the Tao, 
the wise student's practice is with diligence; 
the average student attends to his practice 
when his memory reminds him so to do; 
and the foolish student laughs. 
But we do well to remember 
that with no sudden laughter, 
there would be no natural way."

	-- The Tao Te Ching

Gilad ;-)

-- 
Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]>
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