Subject: what the heck we"re gonna hack tomorrow?

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 22:02:13 -0000

nice start, really. Kudos to Chen.

First: I put a little poll out there, just to test your reactions.

Second: 

Here is draft proposal of Code of Hackers. 

1. This list represents a new level of abstraction over linux-il. 
Therefore, this list is NOT a list of israely linux users. 
Linux should be considered as a nice system, but obviously not 
as the only system. Nor shall any linux-related question be asked or
answered here. We want to be as independent as we can.

2. This list has following aims:

Creation of hacker community in Israel.

Differentiation between hackers and crackers.

Improving professional skills

Keeping in touch with industry.

3. This list should not represent any political fraction. However, 
cooperation with any party will be benificial, as soon as there will
be strong typed distinction between entities.

4. This list will publish technical reviews and perform testing of
new ideas. This kind of activity is nessesairy, as a part of a plan
to World Domination:)

5. Official linux distribution of this list will be Debian. Use of any
other distro will be considered harmful (user will be executed from
list, or hurt in any other way, or sold to Oracle)

---

omerm

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From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 02:14:32 +0300 (EET DST)

> list, or hurt in any other way, or sold to Oracle)

This contradicts your statement that the list shall be a level of
abstraction higher than the Linux-IL mailing list.  The list should invoke
information hiding principles, and decline to specify an official Linux
distribution.  It should even decline to specify Linux to the exclusion of
FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and the Hurd.

If you must specify anything concrete, then specify also the official
kernel version+patch level to be referred to in the hackers-il list
messages.

Similar reasoning lies behind my refusal to vote in the Lingua Franca
poll.  We should abstract our discussions above any specific language.

For examples, use the language, which will yield the shortest possible yet
non-obfuscated(SP?) code.  Other participants should be encouraged to
shorten the examples further by appropriate choice of language.

                                             --- Omer
WARNING:
By sending me unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message/s
(known also as "spam"), you irrevocably agree to pay me US$500.- (plus any
legal expenses incurred by my trying to collect the amount due) per
unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message - for the service
of receiving it.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 06:43:24 +0300

> answered here. We want to be as independent as we can.

linux related question that we'll happily accept: "I've just hacked the kernel
to support streams, can you take a look at this patch?"
 
> Creation of hacker community in Israel.

Yeah.

> Differentiation between hackers and crackers.

I can happily say that I forced Sivan.com to apply stricter editorial rules
over the matter. (well, they needed some help from linux-il and I put an extra
request in).

:-)

> Improving professional skills

yeah, some of us consider profficiency in APL as "improved professional
skills"...

> Keeping in touch with industry.

could be cool, but I have one condition: that no one will every tell me "don't
say that, its bad for our image".
I got lots of it on linux-il, I'm pretty much tired of it. I'd rather have a
Really-Bad-Attitude here than a bunch of industry brown-nosers.

> be strong typed distinction between entities.

if thats what world domination takes... :-)
exception from above still applies.

> new ideas. This kind of activity is nessesairy, as a part of a plan

yep, and as a first step toward that - I'll try to throw a hurd machine on the
web ASAP and give you all accounts on that one.

> list, or hurt in any other way, or sold to Oracle)

errrr... *blush*
does anyone have a Debian CD? 
Noooo don't force me to write an OS in Cobol. NO!!!!!

One more goal:
to show young children what happens when you mix programming with drinking.

--
Chen Shapira	Web Developer and Linux Activist
The algorithm for finding the longest path in a graph is NP-complete.
For you systems people, that means it's *real slow*.

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From: Moshe Zadka <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 09:40:49 +0300 (IDT)

> list, or hurt in any other way, or sold to Oracle)

What about Debianish syntactic sugar such as Storm Linux?
--
Moshe Zadka <[email-masked]>
http://www.oreilly.com/news/prescod_0300.html
http://www.linux.org.il -- we put the penguin in .com

---

From: Gaal Yahas <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:55:40 +0300

> shorten the examples further by appropriate choice of language.

Obfuscation is in the eye of the beholder, you know :-)

-- 
believing is seeing
[email-masked]
http://www.forum2.org/gaal/

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From: Omer Mussaev <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 12:37:38 +0300

> FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and the Hurd.

No, my statement does not contradict anything. Debian is more than just
a Linux distro, it is "Universal Operating System". Which means that you
have Debian-GNU/Linux and Debian-GNU/Hurd, Debian-BSD is on it way and
there is an opportunity for us to hack Debian Solaris.

And if we are talking Linux as a specific example of operating system,
then any mention of RPM will cause immediate "persuasion".

> poll.  We should abstract our discussions above any specific language.

Interesting point.

As I stated in my letter, I put this poll just to check out how fast
ppl will react to it. I think that all of languages mentioned should
be investigated enough to make things interesting.

> shorten the examples further by appropriate choice of language.

should we move this point to the Code?

--
Omer Mussaev    051-308-214   mailto:[email-masked]
systems programmer, Mercury Interactive/RND/Conduct/core

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 18:32:04 -0000

> FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and the Hurd.

I'll second this.  After all, isn't this list interested in other
hackers?

Heck, some hackers don't _know_ Unix, but are definitely hackers.
I personally know quite a few.  Some hackers create hacks that
transcend
operating systems.  I really think it would miss the point to devote
this list
exclusively to Unix hackery, albeit it's a probable focus.
My OS of choice is Unix, but I don't run one most of the time.  My
favorite 
hacking language is Perl, but I mostly hack in English.

Diversity rules.

   Ijon