Subject: DMCA, SSSCA/CBDTPA related laws in Israel?

From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 23:04:52 +0300 (IDT)

1. Is there anyone with legal background and familiarity with the
   lawmaking work in the Knesset, who can tell us if there is any risk
   that laws like the DMCA or SSSCA/CBDTPA will be enacted in Israel?

2. Are there any international treaties, to which Israel is signatory,
   which require it to pass such laws?

3. If yes, is there anything which we can do to prevent the passage of
   those laws?
                                             --- Omer
There is no IGLU Cabal.  It is an outlaw organization.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 02:47:19 +0300

Given the political question, the answer was bound to be political too, so
people who are sensitive about that, please pass on to the next posting...

Thanks you.

>    that laws like the DMCA or SSSCA/CBDTPA will be enacted in Israel?

I have no legal background (luckily), but a passing interest in democracy,
liberty, forms of government and things like that.

To understand why Americans are (rightfully) upset about stuff like the DMCA,
you have to understand their traditions of personal liberties. An American
was supposed to be free not just from the government forcing stuff on him,
but also from the church, local government, and even unscrupulous companies
(see the Sherman Act, for example, and the breakup of Standard Oil, AT&T,
and now the investigation against Microsoft. See also the suits against the
tobacco companies. All these things show that companies are tools that are
supposed to serve humans, not the other way around).

This is why things like software patents, the DMCA, excessive litigation,
and so on, looks to Americans like unconstitutional limiting of their
liberties. In my opinion they are right.

Now in Israel, how exactly will a law like DMCA be different than laws and
"de facto" "rules" we see all around us? The government, religious
establishment, army, and even companies force you to do stuff that would
be unimaginable in the US. You are not allowed to serve bread in a certain
week of the year, you can be refused a job or place of study because of
your faith or ethnic origin, you are not allowed to marry whomever you
want (unless you can afford leaving the country), you (depending again on
your ethnic origin) are forced into slave-labor for 3 years (with a salary
which is 1/10 of the minimum wage). Your real choices when it comes to
banking, phone service, cable company, radio, and so on are severely limited.
In addition to heavy direct taxes (income tax) and indirect taxes (VAT), you
are charged weird special taxes, like a special penalty for buying a TV
(meches), or a special penalty for getting a mortgage (mas bulim). If you
buy a TV, you are forced to pay a certain company ("Rashut Hashidur") for
their single channel - whether you like it or not. Most of these laws
(except income tax and VAT) serve no social purpose except to glorify
certain politicians, religions, companies or agenda.

So other than the fact that the DMCA is "bad", I unfortunately don't see
how far it is from the current Israeli legislators' ways of thought. Most
of them won't even see what could be wrong with such a law ("it will make
my rich friends and patrons happy? it will bring more taxes? bring it on!").

I think what we really need now is a constution, and a strong, impartial
(especially to political and commercial agendas) supreme court to limit
the rulers-du-jour from acting like Robespierre and the Jacobins in the
French revolution (they believed that an "The spirit of the people may
reside in an enlightened minority" (the elected people) and this "enlightened
minority" should be able to do anything it pleases. Unfortunately some
political parties in the Knesset seem to think the same...).

Anyway, even if we never have a constitution ( :( ), there are additional
factors which will lower the chances of a DMCA-like law being accepted
in Israel soon:

1. Most of the "evil" industry, like the MPAA, RIAA, Microsoft and their
   ilk are not Israeli. Israeli legislators will not have much interest
   to pass laws upsetting their constituents and only benefiting foreign
   industries.
   Of course, if such laws in the US will limit what is produced (like the
   disgusting DVD standard), we'll suffer in Israel too, because Israeli
   doesn't have much of an independent electronics industry to speak of.

2. Israel has more a "socialistic" orientation than the US, and personal
   freedoms are regarded here more than freedom of companies.
   Unfortunately this is only theoretic; In reality, politicians are friends
   with and get kickback from rich industrialists and care more about these
   friends of theirs than about the poor joes who voted for them.

>    which require it to pass such laws?

I doubt that. Israel is already on a blacklist of copyright infringement and
on a blacklist of money laundering, and it is very, very, slow on doing
anything about these issues.

> 3. If yes, is there anything which we can do to prevent the passage of

Never vote for parties that act against your personal freedoms.
I won't tell you which, but it's not hard to figure out... Recent supreme
court rulings might also help you recognize those politicians which you
shouldn't be voting for.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |        Friday, Apr 5 2002, 23 Nisan 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Sign in pool: "Welcome to our OOL. Notice
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |there is no P, please keep it that way."

---

From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:59:23 +0300 (IDT)

My reply is posted only to Hackers-IL mailing list, so that people won't
have to download 3-6 copies of each E-mail message (OK, I exaggerated -
everyone except for me will avoid getting extra copy, I'll avoid getting 2
extra copies :-)  ).

> certain politicians, religions, companies or agenda.

In Israel there is a trend of converging toward the American way of
government, as people here learn over the years what the Europans and
Americans learned in 18th century - that a system of checks and balances
in government is necessary to prevent abuses.

Here in Israel, better laws, and beginnings of constitution are gradually
forming, as people abuse their powers and cause us to learn not to trust
them.

But my reason of concern is not so much the principle of personal liberty
(which exists as long as people can freely emigrate from Israel and take
reasonable part of their capital with them) but the danger to
Israeli innovation and startups.  (This is like the difference in emphasis
between Free Software and Open Source, except that in Israeli politics I
am arguing from the side of Open Source.)

As long as I develop software in Israel and can avoid exporting it to
certain countries, I don't want to endure sleepless nights due to
concerns about unknown submarine software patents.  I don't want the
Israeli blind to have their access to the contents of E-books restricted 
due to laws like DMCA (Sklyarov's "illegal" software is needed exactly
for such a reason).  I don't want to risk the possibility of criminalizing
the act of transcribing copyrighted voice recordings into text for the
benefit of the deaf.  I don't want to see Israeli innovation stifled due
to laws imposed upon Israel by bigger and more imprialistic countries.
                                             --- Omer
There is no IGLU Cabal.  This organization is outlaw.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:54:31 +0200

>anything about these issues.

Actually there is a new law which controls money-laundring, and it is 
very similar to the one in the US. Basically it makes banks more liable 
and makes them report any 'unusual' activity (i.e. deposit of more than 
100,000 NIS IIRC).

-- Arik

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:55:44 +0300

> and makes them report any 'unusual' activity (i.e. deposit of more than 

Yes, and still Israel remains on the blacklist. Apparently, there's a new
law, but nobody is even thinking about having it applied: the banks are
not ready, the police are not ready, bank Israel is not ready, and so on.

Kind of like what happened with the new recycling law: some idiots (for
lack of a better word) thought they can just pass a law and everything else
would just solve itself miraculously. The latest estimates say that 2% (!!) of
the bottles/cans are recycled now, where the lawmaker's a-priori
assumption was that the figure would be at least 50% by now. I remember
living in New-Jersey and saving cans for recycling without getting any
money for them - and yet here I never cashed in my 25 agorot for a can, and
always throw them in the trash. Why? Because there's no recycling
infrastructure here. The garbage-men won't pick it up from my house, there
are no recycling trash-cans in the streets (which is where I tend to be when
I drink from a can), and so on. A 25 agorot "jackpot" cannot hide that fact...

But note that a law, even if not applied, is dangerous, because it *can*
be applied, whenever the goverment feels like it. For example, the DMCA has
probably been applied only a handful of times (I only know of two cases),
but the problem is the things that it makes people *afraid* to do.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Saturday, Apr 6 2002, 24 Nisan 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Tact is the art of making a point without
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |making an enemy.

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 02:04:04 +0200

>not ready, the police are not ready, bank Israel is not ready, and so on.
Actually it is being applied starting this year. Check your bank for 
more details.

>I drink from a can), and so on. A 25 agorot "jackpot" cannot hide that fact...
Well, Actually you're wrong here too. All supermarkets will gladly take 
your cans and bottles and give you hard cash for them. I have tried it 
and it works. The fact that very little is recicled is lack of 
consciosness. Keep those cans and take them when you go to the 
supermarket next time.

What bugs me is that the religious parties, just for the heck of it, did 
not let the recycle law affect 1.5 and 2 liter bottles, because 'their 
sector's consumers are not ready to handle that. Damn blood-sucking idiots.

>but the problem is the things that it makes people *afraid* to do.
Ooh, there are so many more cases. Like the google/scientology case. 
Just browse www.eff.org.

-- Arik

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 07:54:13 +0300 (IDT)

> Ooh, there are so many more cases. Like the google/scientology case.

Check:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DMCA/Gallery/index.html

For a partial, but growing, list.

But what is more important is it makes people afraid. Good people. Noble
people. And when people are afraid, they are willing to compromise their
freedom.

A will for freedom is useless without fearlessness that is required to
protect it. To some extent, I am guilty of it too. I used to have a DeCSS
mirror on t2.technion.ac.il (the server that I use as I speak), and
I removed it. I wrote DeCSS for JavaScript (with some help from Chen),
but again did not place it on Technion computers. Naturally, I did not
want to drag the Technion Students' computer into this mess, and did not
hide my identity in any way. But, nonetheless, my sense of
"responsibility" to the Technion, preceded my fearlessness.

Why when it was obvious that the War of Lebanon was up to no good, did not
all the IDF's generals (Alufim) told the press that they would quit if the
IDF does not withdraw from Lebanon immidiately? This is not a political
post in any way, I'm just asking why, because obviously some of them
thought that staying in Lebanon was a big mistake.

Let's take an even "greater" extreme - the Nazi party. Do you think the
Nazis thought it was a good and moral idea to massacare the European Jews?
As racist as they were they still retained their senses. But they feared?
Who did they fear? Each other. Even Hitler thought people would consider
him a loser if he did not materialize his promise to eliminate the Jews.
Plain and simple.

There's a very nice quote I encountered about how all the political regime
will lose power if everybody just say no. But the problem is that
everybody is afraid what everybody else thinks or will think about it,
that they are afraid to say no.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> -- Arik
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        [email-masked]
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

"Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
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