Subject: RE: [hackers-il] RE: Book Recommendation: "Feeling Good" by DavidBurns

From: "Arik Baratz" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:03:37 +0200

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [mailto:[email-masked]]

> I think you're belittling mind altering drugs. They can serve as
> excellent "teachers" too, if you just listen.

I'm cool, go on...

> A lot of people who have deep emotional problems of the type 
> you already
> described are prone to what doctors euphemistically refers to as "self
> medicate", that is they consume mind altering drugs as "pain 
> killers for
> the soul" in an attempt to treat their painful emotional 
> symptoms, just
> like someone else might take a pain killer to quench symptoms of a
> chronic back injury or the like.

Yup. On one hand, well, it works, right? On the other hand, mind altering drugs are. Having your mind altered... Rewritten... De-magnetized and reformatted for lower capacity... Having filtering firmware installed between sections of your mind... Induction coils to absorb the spikes of emotion... Spacers to separate your thought process from your feeling... Injections of different lines of thoughts and different associations...

I don't know about you, but it gives me the creeps.

> The thing is that together with giving you the peace of mind 
> you require
> to cope with a "seizure", they will also teach you a very important
> lesson, if you're mind is open enough and you're ready for what they
> have to teach you. And (to tie it in to what Nadav was saying before)
> drugs are direct experiences, not "canned" experiences that 
> can be found
> in books. Once you have been taught something by directly experiencing
> it it has much more effect and is much more "sticky" then learning
> something from a book.

I agree that drugs are experienced first hand, maybe, but they are akin to the measurement tool which is affecting the measurement. Like an ampere meter with a high internal resistance. What you experience with drugs is objective to the extreme - not only do drugs change the way you feel, they change the way you are experiencing those feelings, the way you are remembering those feelings, the way you react to those feelings. It's a unique experience for you, I agree, but one which affect you in ways you might not grasp because of the affect.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think drugs are bad. In fact my philosophy is that most, if not all drugs should be legalized, while taking measures to prevent the effects of consumption from rubbing on the rest of society. I just want to state that the experience is beyond subjective - it affects subjectivity itself.

> After using mind altering substances for a while  you start to realize
> something about the nature of the universe and yourself: You feel very
> depressed, the world seems like a dark bleak place and you can't get
> anything done right and then you take some pill or smoke some herb and
> the depression goes away, you feel elated and peaceful and 
> the universe
> is a warm fuzzy place again. 

Just a side note: The world actually does change, in reaction to you when you are under the effect.
 
> As time goes by you learn that different drugs do different 
> things: THC
> makes you playful and relaxed and takes away the "edge" of the hard
> feelings, Alcohol will make you upbeat and emotionally numb all
> together. Selective inhibitors of Seratonine re-uptake system 
> will make
> you feel "alright" and full of energy but will keep you from sleeping,
> and so on and so on.

Why did you put quotes around "alright"? And AFAIK the insomnia disappears after a few weeks of use.

> After time you learn that this isn't really limited to "drugs" - some
> foods (like chocolate) have delicate emotional effects too. Simply
> eating when you're been hungry will make you more relaxed and at ease
> with yourself and if you're very anxious sometimes you just 
> need to grab
> a good night of shut eye.

Ok, why do you need to experience the more psychoactive drugs to enjoy the effect of the lesser? I bet every parent knows what the effect of sugar on their kid is (which is interesting because for some people sugar is an upper and for some - present company included - a downer). I can tell how much caffeine is in a drink after I consume it, yet I never consumed anything stronger than caffeine.
 
> At one time or another you simply have got to start 
> wondering: if all it
> takes is so and so CCs of this and that substance to change 
> my mood and
> thoughts completely and alter the way I perceive the universe and
> myself, then obviously my emotions and world view are not a part of
> "me". I mean, if they change so quickly so much and for so 
> little reason
> as several CCs of this or that substance, how can they be a 
> real part of
> what I perceive as "myself"? And if so, if my emotions and 
> feelings and
> viewpoints are not "me", what, or rather who, is me anyway?
>
> And then some remote echo of something you may have read but 
> never quite
> understood surfaces and answers you: "Why, who is asking the 
> question?"

<WARNING - the next paragraph might be depressing to the uninitiated. And maybe to the initiated too.>

Oh, that one's easy. There's no 'you' in the sense that you imagine that exists. There is only your brain, an intricate machine, highly fragile, and prone to effects of sorts, from chemicals to heat to mechanical shock to radiation. The experience of self consciousness is an inevitable result of the complexity of this machine. It's a naturally occurring phenomena, which was gradually enhanced by the forces of evolution because they are beneficial to survival. There's no real reason to life, or to existence. We do it anyway, though, because our judgment is skewed in that way, again by those forces of evolution. We make our goals because, once self aware, think it silly to do it for nothing. Some take on religion, some take on other sorts of tasks and pledges. Me? I say I like to watch.

> And if you are serious in finding the answer to this 
> question, this can
> be the beginning of a very new way of living.

I'm not so sure people want to find the answers to those questions. People don't want to think too much. People want to have routine, to be told their place, and see the expected. Some individuals do. We are apparently biased against it, because those who do have a good correlation with those who commit suicide.

P.S. don't mind me. I didn't sleep for the last 32 hours and I have taken a Malaria drug which is known to be psychoactive, so I may be in a strange mood and regret all this tomorrow morning, but what the heck. Alt+S...

-- Arik

---

From: Alexander Maryanovsky <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:50:23 +0200

>Oh, that one's easy. There's no 'you' in the sense that you imagine that 
>exists. There is only your brain, an intricate machine, highly fragile, 
>and prone to effects of sorts, from chemicals to heat to mechanical shock 
>to radiation. The experience of self consciousness is an inevitable result 
>of the complexity of this machine. It's a naturally occurring phenomena, 
>which was gradually enhanced by the forces of evolution because they are 
>beneficial to survival. There's no real reason to life, or to existence. 
>We do it anyway, though, because our judgment is skewed in that way, again 
>by those forces of evolution. We make our goals because, once self aware, 
>think it silly to do it for nothing. Some take on religion, some take on 
>other sorts of tasks and pledges. Me? I say I like to watch.

Hmm, interestingly, that actually lifted my spirit. Why? Because the 
conclusion from that is that nothing you do really matters. Some may, then, 
based on that conclusion go and do something nasty. For me on the other 
hand, it means that I can let go and do something that is probably good, 
but I would otherwise be afraid to do.

Of course, you're not saying anything new, but there are certain truths 
that we all know but tend to forget when living the everyday life. When you 
forget that you don't really matter, you start thinking "What will happen 
if I do this? Can it have an unpleasant outcome for me?" and then you 
decide to, just in case, not to do "this". Knowing that you don't matter 
gives you a good reason to lighten up :-) So thanks for reminding :-)

Then again, I haven't slept well for a while either :-)

Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 16:03 13.11.2002 +0200, Arik Baratz wrote:

>Yup. On one hand, well, it works, right? On the other hand, mind altering 
>drugs are. Having your mind altered... Rewritten... De-magnetized and 
>reformatted for lower capacity... Having filtering firmware installed 
>between sections of your mind... Induction coils to absorb the spikes of 
>emotion... Spacers to separate your thought process from your feeling... 
>Injections of different lines of thoughts and different associations...
>
>I agree that drugs are experienced first hand, maybe, but they are akin to 
>the measurement tool which is affecting the measurement. Like an ampere 
>meter with a high internal resistance. What you experience with drugs is 
>objective to the extreme - not only do drugs change the way you feel, they 
>change the way you are experiencing those feelings, the way you are 
>remembering those feelings, the way you react to those feelings. It's a 
>unique experience for you, I agree, but one which affect you in ways you 
>might not grasp because of the affect.
>
>Don't get me wrong - I don't think drugs are bad. In fact my philosophy is 
>that most, if not all drugs should be legalized, while taking measures to 
>prevent the effects of consumption from rubbing on the rest of society. I 
>just want to state that the experience is beyond subjective - it affects 
>subjectivity itself.
>
>Ok, why do you need to experience the more psychoactive drugs to enjoy the 
>effect of the lesser? I bet every parent knows what the effect of sugar on 
>their kid is (which is interesting because for some people sugar is an 
>upper and for some - present company included - a downer). I can tell how 
>much caffeine is in a drink after I consume it, yet I never consumed 
>anything stronger than caffeine.
>
>Oh, that one's easy. There's no 'you' in the sense that you imagine that 
>exists. There is only your brain, an intricate machine, highly fragile, 
>and prone to effects of sorts, from chemicals to heat to mechanical shock 
>to radiation. The experience of self consciousness is an inevitable result 
>of the complexity of this machine. It's a naturally occurring phenomena, 
>which was gradually enhanced by the forces of evolution because they are 
>beneficial to survival. There's no real reason to life, or to existence. 
>We do it anyway, though, because our judgment is skewed in that way, again 
>by those forces of evolution. We make our goals because, once self aware, 
>think it silly to do it for nothing. Some take on religion, some take on 
>other sorts of tasks and pledges. Me? I say I like to watch.
>
>I'm not so sure people want to find the answers to those questions. People 
>don't want to think too much. People want to have routine, to be told 
>their place, and see the expected. Some individuals do. We are apparently 
>biased against it, because those who do have a good correlation with those 
>who commit suicide.
>
>P.S. don't mind me. I didn't sleep for the last 32 hours and I have taken 
>a Malaria drug which is known to be psychoactive, so I may be in a strange 
>mood and regret all this tomorrow morning, but what the heck. Alt+S...
>
>-- Arik
>
>
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---

From: Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Nov 2002 18:04:38 +0200

> > excellent "teachers" too, if you just listen.

BTW, I was not trying to convince anyone to "do drugs" or the other way
around. I just pointed out what benefit I got from there. I thought it
was worth sharing.

>  between sections of your mind... Induction coils to absorb the spikes
> of emotion... Spacers to separate your thought process from your
> feeling... Injections of different lines of thoughts and different 
> associations...

More like de-programed, freed for a moment from the filter forced on
your mind by society and upbringing. Be shown that the world looks just
like this only because you look at it just like that, and that infinite
other possible worlds exists and you can arrive at any one of them by
simply changing your view point.

And yeah, sure, there's a price to pay for knowledge and it is not
cheap. Damaging you mind is not the problem, I'm afraid. The problem is
that once you cross the line you can never unlearn that the "realness"
of reality is just an illusion and that it's all just one big shared
hallucination we conjure together. Until you learn to cope with this it
can really drive you mad.

There's a known Zen Koan that catches the spirit of this quite well. it
says that before you start seeking enlightenment the sea is just a sea
and the mountain a mountain. When you start waling the path the sea is
no longer the sea and the mountain is not a mountain no longer, but once
you reach enlightenment the mountain is again just a mountain and the
sea just a sea.

> I don't know about you, but it gives me the creeps.

Staying for ever trapped in the Matrix and being sure it's reality gave
me the creeps ;-)
  
> after a few weeks of use.

Two months or so, at least in my case. There is no special meaning to
the quotes. The feeling is just as usual only you are happier. Except
for the down period that sometimes catches you at evening. Those can be
a drag but comparing to the down sides of something like Marijuana or
LSD it's really nothing.

> effect of the lesser? I bet every parent knows what the effect of sugar
> on their kid is (which is interesting because for some people sugar is an
> much caffeine is in a drink after I consume it, yet I never consumed anything 
> stronger than caffeine.

You don't need to take drugs to realize the effect. I just described the
path I went through, in which observing the changes in my world that
happened when I took drugs have lead me to realize how much things who I
treated seriously before and suffered from (feelings of anxiety,
loneliness and depression) are not some big cosmic problem but like a
storm gushing over sea - the waves may be very high, but in the depth
everything is as should and quiet as usual and all I really need to do
is get some sleep or eat or whatever other small thing that is the real
cause of all this "storm". 

I know it's sounds trivial, but it was a true revelation for me and I
arrived to it partially thanks to mind altering drugs.

>  exists. There is only your brain, an intricate machine, highly
>  fragile, and prone to effects of sorts, from chemicals to heat to
> ...

To say that you are you brain and that awareness is just a side effect
does not add any meaningful data. It might very well be true, but it
doesn't matter at all as far as I'm concerned, it's just multiplying
entities needlessly. You could just as well say that we're software that
is running on the hardware which is the Multiverse and the laws of
nature is the operating system.  It makes just the same sense and adds
just the same information.[1] the question i asked has nothing to do
with the field your relating to in your answer.

[1] Indeed, one can look at Heisenberg uncertainty principle as some
really neat method for Nature to avoid rendering parts of the universe
that no sentient entity is watching at that specific moment, just like a
modern 3d graphics card will not render polygons that you wont see
because they are obscured by others... :-)

> Me? I say I like to watch.

Me too. The graphics is stunning although the plot is too  complex to
comprehend... :-)

-- 
 Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]> 
 http://benyossef.com 
 "Denial really is a river in Eygept."