Subject: Is Open-Content and/or Collaborative Written Art OT on Freshmeat?

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:18:56 +0200 (IST)

Refer to:

http://freshmeat.net/projects/humanity/

(once it is back on-line)

Basically, a certain bloke there said that FM was not the right place for
"this kind of ****". I answered that I think it is because:

1. It is a collaborative project.

2. It is open-content.

3. It can be viewed just fine on Linux.

Somebody else replied to my reply and said that for those reasons and more
it sounded like a fantastic idea and he wishes me the best of luck.

The project was successfully launched at BerliOS, but so far there are
only 4 members in humanity-discuss and 1 of them is me. I know projects
need to grow, and it is weekend in Europe and the States, but I am hoping
for more input from other people.

Do you think I should forward the announcement to Linus Torvalds, ESR and
RMS? I have a feeling that they would totally dig the idea. I already sent
it to [email-masked].

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        [email-masked]
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

If:
1. A is A
2. A is not not-A
does it imply that
1. B is B
2. B is not not-B

---

From: mulix <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:28:45 +0200 (IST)

> for more input from other people.

a subject close to my heart...

syscalltrack-hackers, the main syscalltrack mailing list, has only 8 or
so memberes, the majority of whom are lurkers. most of the discussion
takes place between guy and myself. and this in spite of ~600 downloads
and  ~4500 page views until now - you would think at least *some* of
these people would be interested in contributing.

so, i ask myself occasionally, what can i, as one of the project leaders
do to promote interest in syscalltrack? after thinking long and hard, i
reach the inevitable conclusion - pretty much nothing.

because no matter what 'marketing' tricks one resorts to, and who one
mails, the project will stand, or fall, on the code and its usefullness
to people. if it's good, people will hear about it. if not, well, no
ammount of marketing will do.

so my advice to you, shlomi, is to forget 'promoting' for the time
being, and concentrate on the code, or in this case, the script.

> Do you think I should forward the announcement to Linus Torvalds,
> ESR and RMS? I have a feeling that they would totally dig the idea.
> I already sent it to [email-masked].

no. they (and their mailboxes) deserve some peace, imho.

btw, what i wrote above should not be construed as saying that i
completely abandoned marketing efforts: i still try to promote
syscalltrack and get people interested in working on it. i just try to
be creative about it (organizing a syscalltrack hacking session at the
upcoming linux day, giving a syscalltrack lecture in december in haifux)
and never forget that code speaks best, and my time is best spent
hacking, not talking.

shut up and show them the code, in other words.
-- 
mulix

http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
http://syscalltrack.sf.net/

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:05:18 +0200 (IST)

> shut up and show them the code, in other words.

I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.

This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
Freecell Solver. Anyway, this should be the next ThinkGeek slogan:

Show me the code!!!

(in reference to Jerry Maguire, a most excellent film)

Bye for now,

	Shlomi Fish

There is no IGLU Cabal!
All the cabal members became frustrated from people not noticing what they
do, so they neglected the maintainance of the IGLU activities.

BTW, I'd like to borrow the expression "There is no IGLU Cabal!"
for "Humanity" discussions. My interpretation of its meaning is "Is
not, Never happened, and never will happen". Sort of like "Lo Hayu Dvarim
Me'olam" or "Lo Dobim Ve'Lo Ya'ar" in Hebrew.

OmerZ, being the Chief Self-Contradicting Identification Officer of IGLU
and Hackers-IL, do you approve of this meaning?

If:
1. A is A
2. A is not not-A
does it imply that
1. B is B
2. B is not not-B

---

From: Tzafrir Cohen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:19:52 +0200 (IST)

> people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.

Shlomi, consider yourself as someone who wants to promot some political
agenda. It is important to you, although you may not have a direct benefit
from that. You try to make others accept your views of the matter.

Consider a couple of things:

* most people that will visit the site will not want to contribute (most
  hits are not sells)
* You should not over-promote your project, e.g.: by spamming and by
  creating un-necessary announcements. People learn to filter-out such
  announcements.

> Freecell Solver. Anyway, this should be the next ThinkGeek slogan:

What is your point here? That some software projects are not interesting
to enough people?
I could be selfish and ask you to contribute to r2l, but I know that you
have better things to do in your spare time (freecell-solver, humanity,
just to mention some computer-related ones)

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:[email-masked]
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:53:23 +0200

> "this kind of ****". I answered that I think it is because:

Regardless of how interesting or commendable your effort is, I also agree
that Freshmeat isn't exactly the natural home for such announcements...

From Freshmeat's "About":

     "freshmeat maintains the Web's largest index of Unix and cross-platform
      open source software. ... Each entry provides a description of the
      software, links to download it and to obtain more information ....
      The first stop for Linux users hunting for the software they need for
      work or play ...
      In addition to providing news on new releases, freshmeat offers a
      variety of original content on technical, political, and social
      aspects of software and programming ..."

The way I read this is that "projects" on freshmeat must be open source
*software* (a movie isn't software, I think you'd agree), but "articles"
can be anything vaguely related to software, open source ideas, and even
ideas more remotely connected to those (so your movie would fit this, if
it were an article...).

Another "proof" that freshmeat projects were meant to be software, not
movie scripts: Take a look at the subject tree ("Browse"). You'll find
there categrories like "Communications", "Games/Entertainment", "Text
Editors", and so on - not things like "Movies", "Books", "Manifestos", and
so on.

But all that being said - if you got your project listed on Freshmeat without
them objecting, enjoy it and use it :) Good luck!

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |     Sunday, Oct 28 2001, 11 Heshvan 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |How long a minute depends on what side of
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |the bathroom door you're on.

---

From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:28:30 +0200 (EET)

> and Hackers-IL, do you approve of this meaning?

I disclaim any copyright or trademark claims of the above phrase.
I am not the original author of the phrase (Moshe Zadka IIRC).

However, in order to reduce the equivalent of "trademark dilution", can
you choose another name for an organization which is not supposed to
exist, never existed, will never exist, but there are all kinds of
unexplained traces of its existence?

If not, go ahead with the IGLU Cabal.
                                             --- Omer
There is no IGLU Cabal.  The organization had to change its name due to an
ugly and silly trademark dilution dispute.  The new name is kept secret to
prevent further trademark disputes.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:05:03 +0200 (IST)

On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:

> [snipped...]

The problem is that there are also fortune collections, documents and
other stuff that are only partially related to software. So I don't think
it doesn't belong there. Of course, if my way of doing things<tm> becomes
commonplace, it would probably be a better idea to start a separate
forum/bill board for that.

But what the hell - who is John Galt?

> them objecting, enjoy it and use it :) Good luck!

Thanks!

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email-masked]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

If:
1. A is A
2. A is not not-A
does it imply that
1. B is B
2. B is not not-B

---

From: mulix <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:42:40 +0200 (IST)

> people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.

no necessarily, people learn fairly quickly to filter out noise. post
once a week/month - it's usefull. post once a day - it's noise.

> Freecell Solver.

i think that contrary to what many people might think, most "bazaar
style" projects have a small core group of people that do most of the
work. i seem to recall reading something by alan cox to that effect,
too.

can you think of any big software project where many (let's say, more
than 10?) people work on te *same* pieces of code, regularly?

-- 
mulix

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:55:56 +0200 (IST)

> * most people that will visit the site will not want to contribute (most

I realize this fact.

>   creating un-necessary announcements. People learn to filter-out such

I'm trying to promote the project for a one time thing at its
announcement.

> What is your point here? That some software projects are not interesting

I don't have a point, I was just casually mentioning a fact. It takes
a project some time to accumulate developers and that's all there is to
it.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

If:
1. A is A
2. A is not not-A
does it imply that
1. B is B
2. B is not not-B

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:00:54 +0200 (IST)

> once a week/month - it's usefull. post once a day - it's noise.

Of course I'm not going to post every little change. But I'm going to post
enough for people to get the hang of the major changes.

> than 10?) people work on te *same* pieces of code, regularly?

Well, parrot (the perl6 bytecode interpreter) seems to be such a case. And
also the Linux Kernel. But naturally, they are relatively exceptional
cases.

In any case, the "bazaar" way of doing things has some properties, besides
the fact that "many" people co-operate on the code.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

If:
1. A is A
2. A is not not-A
does it imply that
1. B is B
2. B is not not-B