Subject: My Wish-list for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:35:46 +0200 (IST)

I am planning to attend the O'Reilly Open-Source Convention next year, and
here is my wish list. Comments, suggestions and flames are welcome.

(note very preliminary brain-stormy stage)

* Meet Linus Torvalds, ESR, RMS, Don Knuth and other open-source
hot-shots.

* Meet Larry Wall and Damian Conway and the rest of the Perl crowd.

* Confront Larry McVoy about BitKeeper.

* Tell Linus about my plan to "hit him with a bus".

* Give any of the following presentations:
    "Rindolf - Purpose and Objectives"
    "Freecell Solver - Evolution of a C program" (already prepared)
    "Freecell Solver - The Next Presentation"

* To be continued...

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        [email-masked]
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

"Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
"Wait a second - is n a natural number?"

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:12:49 +0200

> * Meet Linus Torvalds, ESR, RMS, Don Knuth and other open-source

What will you do, ask them to autograph your Mandrake CD? :)

> * Confront Larry McVoy about BitKeeper.

PLEASE, DON'T.
Larry, if he comes to this convention at all, plans to enjoy it like you
do. "Confronting" him, shouting at him, blaming him, and so on, will just
make him feel miserable. Even if you have arguments with his ideological
standing on free software, it's not a reason to harass a guy who's trying
to enjoy a convention.

>     "Freecell Solver - The Next Presentation"

Either you're joking, or someone will have to notify the police in advance :(

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Monday, Nov 18 2002, 13 Kislev 5763
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |ech`echo xiun|tr nu oc|sed
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |'sx\([sx]\)\([xoi]\)xo un\2\1 is xg'`ol

---

From: Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]>
Date: 18 Nov 2002 15:44:27 +0200

> * Confront Larry McVoy about BitKeeper.

You know, all these people actually have a life (OK, I'm not 100% sure
about RMS, but he is a saint. Chicks dig saints... ;-) I rather suspect
that they treat this sort of public attention as something they have to
suffer though and not enjoy very much.

The one time where I met Linus in person (LinuxWorld 2001) I was sitting
quite close to the stage and after the event was over I figured I'd walk
to him and just say hello and thank him but then I saw the horde of
geeks around him asking for an autograph and the look on Linus face and
decided to respect his privacy. He was playing the game being a nice guy
and all but he obviously didn't enjoy doing that at all.

We all have our favorite fantasy of meeting our heroes in person and
striking up a conversation and befriending them in person, but "hitting"
on people in a confrence is not a good way to make new friends.

Just my 2cs,

Gilad.

-- 
 Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]> 
 http://benyossef.com 
 "Denial really is a river in Eygept."

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:52:16 +0200 (IST)

Replying to myself:

1. Trying to promote the idea of publishing my "Freecell Solver" book
among the various publishers. (it was already rejected from O'Reilly).

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:57:28 +0200 (IST)

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:

> > here is my wish list. Comments, suggestions and flamesare welcome.
> >

No, talk to them about their work, bug-fixes to what they do etc. Tell
Linus he should hit himself with a bus, so to speak, tell Don Knuth why I
think Assembler is awful for an algorithms book, etc. If I am introduced
to them that is.

> standing on free software, it's not a reason to harass a guy who's trying

I'm not going to shout at him. I'm going to explain to him that he markets
and licenses BitKeeper the wrong way. That he should make sure it is
distributed on every Linux CD out there. That he can make BitKeeper the
best Rev. Control system out there, not just a good one. A little bit of
CatB/Spolskyism.

And I'd like to congratulate him for the wonderful work he did on
BitKeeper. It is really a very polished and remarkable piece of
engineering and I think he deserves a compliment.

> Either you're joking, or someone will have to notify the police in advance :(

No, I'm going to submit those presentations to the organization commitee
for them to decide if I can give them. If they reject all of them -
whatever, but I'd still like to give them. You never succeed unless you
try.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

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---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:06:39 +0200 (IST)

> suffer though and not enjoy very much.

What I would like is to somehow introduced to them. I would not dream of
storming them. Something like I meet Foo, a relatively small-time O-S
developer, and I tell him that I Shlomi Fish, the Freecell Solver guy,
etc. etc. And this Foo knows Bar, an O-S hot shot that I'll love to meet
and he asks me if I want to meet him, and makes us acquainted. That would
be nice.

I don't need Linus' Autograph, because it want make me a happier person.
But for instance, I found a marble on the pavement today (a jewel if you
may), picked it up and it has made me a bit happier.

I corresponded with RMS a bit, and he has been quite responsive and
helpful (in a little bit trollish and ego-maniacal way). I'd love to meet
him in person, but I hope he won't spend the time trying to convince me to
convert Freecell Solver to the GPL. ;-)

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Oleg Goldshmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: 18 Nov 2002 19:24:11 +0200

Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]> writes:

> think Assembler is awful for an algorithms book, etc. 

Shlomi, it is a well-known fact that Don Knuth has been told more than
once (this is my 969th entry to the 2002 Underestimation of the Year
contest) that MIX is awful for an algorithms book. He has been told
that enough times for him to summarize his reasoning in the preface to
the later editions of TAOCP. Similarly, Linus by now has a pretty good
idea of the tradeoffs involved in getting hit by a bus.

If you are really striving to meet these (and other) people, I would
suggest that you figure out a way to approach them with an
interesting, meaningful (to them, not just to you) question or
comment. Your interaction with them will be much more rewarding, and
you will do a great service to the community by sparing them yet
another annoying reiteration of things they have heard N^2 times too
many.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | [email-masked] 
========================================================
First binary search algorithm         - J. Mauchly, 1946        
First correct binary search algorithm - D.H.Lehmer, 1960

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:38:15 +0200

> convert Freecell Solver to the GPL. ;-)

Shlomi, I want to quote you something that you said earlier today regarding
what you plan to tell Larry McVoy when you meet him:

   "...I'm not going to shout at him. I'm going to explain to him that he
    markets and licenses BitKeeper the wrong way."

And here you just said how much you hope that Stallman *doesn't* tell *you*
the exact same thing. Why would you want to do to Larry what you don't want
Stallman to do to you??

The old Jewish proverb goes "don't do to your friend what you hate yourself".
If you want to turn to more recent philosophers, Kant's categorical imperative
says more or less the same thing.

Worse - you have already told Larry exactly what you think of his license.
On several occasions. He got upset, but did not repent. Why do you feel
the urge to go down that road again?

By the way, Larry Wall once said that "A truly great computer programmer is
lazy, impatient and full of hubris". But you don't want to overdo it,
especially not the last one...

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Monday, Nov 18 2002, 14 Kislev 5763
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |A Life? Cool! Where can I download one of
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |those from?

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:49:03 +0200

> No, I'm going to submit those presentations to the organization commitee

Putting puns aside, my police reference was obviously about your plan to
hit Linus with a bus. I suggest you refrain from using that phrase. It may
be ok (albeit a bit macabre) to say "what will happen if <person> gets hit
by a bus", but it sounds very scary when you tell someone to his face about
your *plan* to hit him with a bus :(

This "getting hit by a bus" sound like a good crack, but only if it doesn't
happen. For example, Matt Smith, the author of Micq (which I have used a lot),
wasn't so lucky. I don't know if he actually got hit by a bus, though, I
think it was a more "usual" car accident.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Monday, Nov 18 2002, 14 Kislev 5763
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Corduroy pillows - they're making
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |headlines!

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:18:56 +0200 (IST)

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:

> be ok (albeit a bit macabre) to say"what will happen if <person> gets hit
> happen. For example,Matt Smith, the author of Micq (which I have used a lot),

Hmmm.

What I meant by "getting hit by a bus" is that he should step off as
official kernel "benevolent" dictator and force the Linux kernel team to
figure out a different solution for managing themselves. Right now they
look at him as the ultimate authority on the kernel and that's not good.

If I had the valid computer resources I would fork my own version of the
kernel: Rad-Linux (Rad stems from Rindolf), and challenge Linus'
Authority. I will appoint other co-benevolent dictators and stuff like
that. I'll also make some other decisions (integrate kdb, Ingo Mulnar's
algorithm for fast lookup of available PIDs, use Subversion instead of BK,
etc, more patches and fixes to be integrated)

The project first phase is from the time it is initiated until the demise
of its benevolent dictator. After that, a project re-organizes itself in a
better way, whether with a new benevolent dictator or otherwise. I think
it is high time Linux loses its dictator and they start to figure
something else.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]>
Date: 19 Nov 2002 11:07:09 +0200

> look at him as the ultimate authority on the kernel and that's not good.

You kind of missed the point of the joke about benevolent dictator here
Shlomi. Linus doesn't have an ounce of power to force anyone to do
anything they don't want to do and it's not an accident either - he made
sure this will be so. This is why people trust him and listen to him.
That and being a very good engineer (in the same way Knuth is a very
good computer scientist :-)

More importantly, I don't think there EXISTS a better way to manage
Linux development. No, not because Linus is perfect, or rather, because
Linus isn't perfect - and so does no one else. The Linux crowd works
like a honest to god working anarchy (in the real sense of that word).
Anarchy doesn't mean there are no leaders, just that they lead without
coercion - people listen to what they have to say because they respect
them.

And sometimes people don't listen to them and that is excellent. More
then that - I'm pretty sure *Linus* would tell you it's excellent!

I seriously cannot envision a better system, simply ebcause there is no
"system" -  just this guy that we trust and has a very low rate of
mistakes. What do you propose to replace this with - a committee?

> etc, more patches and fixes to be integrated)

Excuse me for being blunt, but lack of computer resources is not your
problem. You're not doing this because you not as bright as Linus, or
have better social life then he :-) not because you're lacking access to
a computer. And Linus doesn't "appoint" anyone - he just works with
those he trusts and people trust Linus and his judgment. What stops you
from doing Rad-Linux is that people don't trust you, at least not in the
same way that they trust Linus and there is a reason for it - he showed
us he can be trusted to deliver and pass mostly good judgment by
building a new OS with practicly thousands of people. You on the other
hand built a single project (yes, I know that you wrote more programs,
that's not the point) which is nice. There is a difference.

I am not trying to belittle you in any way - I haven't in coding any
more then you did. But then again, I'm not trying to beat Linus at his
own game ;-)

Speaking of which - I'm reading "Just for fun" and Linus quips there
that Linux is like the world championship of some really big cerebral
team sport. Sort of like Rugby or basketball, but for Thinking
People(tm). I found that image very entertaining to think about. Imagine
for a second an OLS like picture of the "Linux Team", all in Vendorware
and jeans  "uniform" with big numbers (in hexadecimal, of course!) on
the back. 

Linus, of course, will be wearing the "0x0" shirt :-)

<giggle>

Gilad

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:00:05 +0200 (IST)

OK, maybe I should explain myself too much.

I know the Linux development is an anarchy, but Linus Torvalds is still
the high authority that anybody trusts and makes the ultimate decision
about what goes into his kernel tree. I think this is not good.

What I'm planning to do, is do a fork of Linux. I will incorporate
everything Linus puts there, but also some things of my own. I will
appoint other people as co-benevolent dictators. I will have a Patch
Penguin who has a lot of time on his hands. Granted: I'm not as good as
engineer (at least as far as OS kernels) are concerned as Torvalds is, but
I think I can make a better job at managing it.

People won't automatically trust me at first, but I expect trust to
eventually come, and that people would realize Rad-Linux is a much better
idea than Torvalds-Linux. It will take a lot of time and effort. And a
hell lot of hotzpa and hubris. ;-) But I hope to get the Linux development
out from its current undesireable equilibrium.

I don't plan to throw away Linus into the streets, so to speak. He may
eventually join Rad-Linux as a co-developer. But he will no longer have
the mystique he has now.

Hope I made myself clear.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:02:36 +0200

> idea than Torvalds-Linux. It will take a lot of time and effort. And a

If you call this Rad-Linux, be sure to try to squeeze a donation from the
Zisappels - I'm sure they would find the choice of name amusing :)

> out from its current undesireable equilibrium.

In what sense is the current quilibrium "undesirable"???
Say whatever you want, but Linux development is currently working out
quite well.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
Or in the words of Lao Tse,

   "Who can wait quietly while the mud settles?
    Who can remain still until the moment of action?
    Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfillment.
    Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change."

	Lao Tse, Tao Tch Ching, 15

   "Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it?
    I do not believe it can be done.
    The universe is sacred.
    You cannot improve it.
    If you try to change it, you will ruin it.
    If you try to hold it, you will lose it."

	Lao Tse, Tao Tch Ching, 29

   "Less and less is done
    Until non-action is achieved.
    When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
    The world is ruled by letting things take their course.
    It cannot be ruled by interfering."

	Lao Tse, Tao Tch Ching, 48

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |     Tuesday, Nov 19 2002, 14 Kislev 5763
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |"Did you sleep well?" "No, I made a
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |couple of mistakes."

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:25:08 +0200 (IST)

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:

> > idea than Torvalds-Linux. It will take a lot oftime and effort. And a
>

I didn't get this joke. But never mind.

> > outfrom its current undesireable equilibrium.
>

I don't think so:

1. Many patches are not accepted by Linus.
2. Linus is very busy - he is a father of several children and has a job
and other occupations.
3. Linus is extremely brief in some of his posts. I would prefer if he was
perfectly verbose and clear.
4. Kernel 2.4.x causes people extreme problems and frustrations.
5. People see him as the ultimate authority. He has been that way since
_he_ started the project.

> If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

I think it is broken, so I'm going to fix it.

> 	Lao Tse, Tao Tch Ching,15
>

Hate to disagree here. There is nothing sacred about the Universe. In fact
it is yours to change. Reality to be conquered must be obeyed. But it
still needs to be conquered.

My creed is "I will change the world".

>   It cannot be ruled by interfering."

Incredibly incorrect. The people of Nazi germany simply "went with the
flow" and let things take its course. In "The Road to Heaven is Paved with Bad
Intentions" I will show how one person armed with the valid philosophical
knowledge and the words and actions to prove it could have changed that.
There is an abstract on my homepage.

Just because Lao Tse said it does not mean its true. I can go against
anyone and have no authority other than my own self.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Muli Ben-Yehuda <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:07:00 +0200

> 1. Many patches are not accepted by Linus.

All too often, for a good reason. Don't like it, use one of the other
trees. 

> 2. Linus is very busy - he is a father of several children and has a job

And that's supposed to be a reason why Linux development is not
working out quite well???

> perfectly verbose and clear.

I would prefer it if you were succint and restrained in your
postings to hackers-il. So?

> 4. Kernel 2.4.x causes people extreme problems and frustrations.

Care to elaborate? or explain how *you* could do it better?

> _he_ started the project.

I see a greed eyed monster on your shoulder. You're feeding it. Soo,
it will feed on you. 

> I think it is broken, so I'm going to fix it.

Show us the code. I'm still waiting for the rindolf code. 

> My creed is "I will change the world".

My creed is "I will not feed the trolls", but evidently, I still do. 

> anyone and have no authority other than my own self.

Ummm. As long as you're not driving a bus.

Shlomi, I don't know whether to be happy you provide such timeless
amusements, or to *plonk* you and have my inbox be a quieter, if
duller, place. 
-- 
Muli Ben-Yehuda				    http://www.mulix.org/
[email-masked]:~$ sctrace strace /bin/foo  http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
Quis custodes ipsos custodiet?

---

From: Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]>
Date: 19 Nov 2002 20:28:30 +0200

> I didn't get this joke. But never mind.
The ZIsapples are the owners of a high tech company called RAD.

> 1. Many patches are not accepted by Linus.

HA! This is a GOOD thing. Linus drops the patches that he doesn't feel
are good. He is a filter and a damn good one two.

> anyone and have no authority other than my own self.

No, but Lao Tse has soemthing very smart. You would do well to heed him.
And it seems he thought on exactly you when he wrote this: :-)

"When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence;
When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion;
When the mean man learns the Way, he laughs out loud;
Those who do not laugh, do not learn at all.

Therefore it is said:
Who understands the Way seems foolish;
Who progresses on the Way seems to fail;
Who follows the Way seems to wander.

For the finest harmony appears plain;
The brightest truth appears coloured;
The richest character appears incomplete;
The bravest heart appears meek;
The simplest nature appears inconstant.

The square, perfected, has no corner;
Music, perfected, has no melody;
Love, perfected, has no climax;
Art, perfected, has no meaning.

The Way can be neither sensed nor known:
It transmits sensation and transcends knowledge."

:-)

Gilad

 "Geeks rock bands cool name #8192: RAID against the machine"

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:58:46 +0200

> I didn't get this joke. But never mind.

The Zisappels own or started a dozen companies called Rad-something.
One of them is the company I work for, Radware :)

> My creed is "I will change the world".

This creed is going to cause you a lot of suffering.
You can chose a few things you want to change, but if you go around insisting
that "*everything* must change", like you seem to have been doing lately,
it will very hard for you to become truely happy.

> Incredibly incorrect. The people of Nazi germany simply "went with the

I hereby invoke Godwin's law, and declare this thread over.
This will be my last post in this thread.

Nazi Germany did not manage to conquer the world, did it?? In trying to
change the world so radically (we know, of course, that the change would
have been for the worse, but the Nazis did not think so), Germany had so
much opposition to what it was doing, that millions of Russians, Brits,
Americans, Australians, etc., went out to *die* in order to prevent Germany
from forcing this change on the world.

This is what Lao Tse means you cannot conquer the world by action, only
by non-action.

> anyone and have no authority other than my own self.

This is certainly true, you shouldn't follow anyone (not even Ayn Rand ;))
blindly. I certainly don't. I think this is my first mention of Lao Tse
on this list - I certainly don't use him as my "urim ve'tumim", and my
lifestyle is (unfortunately?) quite far away from the taoist one.

I only mentioned Lao Tse's writing because I thought you were a philosophy
buff. It's very easy to ridicule the Taoist way of thought, because it's so
different from the usual western way of thought (were someone living
according to the Tao might be incorrectly be labled as lazy, incompetent, or
a "freak"). But Taoist ideas are not completely without merit, and sometimes
you might actually learn from them. (Stoicism is a similar philosophy from
ancient greece).

The quotes I showed you (from some random translation I found on the net,
I can't vouch for its fidelity to the original Chinese) were all about how
trying to change everything will leave you with changing nothing. There's
also a Hebrew saying that "tafasta merube, lo tafasta".
You mustn't go after change for change's sake, because that is not the way
to happiness and not the way to conquer anything (the "center party" learned
that all too well in the last elections). Moreover, to truely conquer
something (your environment, the world, the laws of physics, the universe)
you should strive to understand it first, not to change it. In changing the
environment, the world, etc., you're in real danger in destroying it instead
(examples abound, from species made extinct by humans, human nations
destroyed, rain forest destruction, etc.).

None of this obviously means that you shouldn't strive to change things
that you consider bad. But you must not make changing for change's sake
your main goal.

Maybe in another list, in another time, I can also tell you a bit about what
Kierkegaard (a well-known religious existensialist philosopher) said about
why sometime following rules (rather than changing them all the time to fit
your immediate desires) actually makes you freeer (this sounds counter-
intuitive, I know, but is not stupid as it sounds).

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |     Tuesday, Nov 19 2002, 15 Kislev 5763
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Live as if you were to die tomorrow,
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |learn as if you were to live forever.

---

From: Oleg Goldshmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: 19 Nov 2002 22:05:29 +0200

> My creed is "I will change the world".

My NIS 0.02: Approach this goal in a incremental fashion: change one
person at a time, starting with yourself [no, it is not a personal
comment, just an old adage that I cannot attribute properly at the
moment].

> It's very easy to ridicule the Taoist way of thought

Or TAOCP, for that matter... ;-)

---

From: Orna Agmon <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:46:43 +0200 (IST)

> anyone and have no authority other than my own self.

The Tao is not a recepie for behaviour which would lead you to ruling the 
world. Rather, it is a description of the ways of the sage, who is one who 
already has what he wants, and things go his way.

What this part means is, not " Do nothing" but "If you made it, one of 
the sign 
would be that you have to do nothing or very little to keep the 
equilibrium". Much like pushing a pendulum exactly in its accurate 
frequency.

The Tao is a very deep literature. When Lao Tse, who was the king's 
advisor, left the court of the 
king, the door keeper asked him to leave some of his wisdom behind. so he 
sat down and wrote those few pieces. He was a very wise man, who  
lived in a very different era.  Though I might disagree with some of the 
ideas I understand from his writing (I sometimes understood three 
different ideas from the same lines),
 I would not run around screaming that 
he was "incredibly incorrect". Instead, I would sit and try to figure yet 
another way to understand the scripts.

-- 
Orna.   |  http://tx.technion.ac.il/~agmon

A cat has claws at the end of its paws.    
A sentence has a pause at the end of its clause.

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:50:43 +0200 (IST)

On 19 Nov 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:

> comment, just an oldadage that I cannot attribute properly at the
> moment].
>

I am perfectly happy with myself, and do not want to change any other
person in the meaning that he will become a different person. I want to
change such things as unnecessary rules, regulations and the bodies that
treat them as dogma.

> Or TAOCP, for that matter... ;-)

I don't ridicule TAOCP. I just think it could have used some pseudo-code
in one form or another and that including it in the comments, is not the
clearest way to do so. But I suppose it is a choice between two evils. Oh
well - all hail Knuth.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:55:27 +0200 (IST)

> Show us the code. I'm still waiting for the rindolf code.

At the moment I don't have the computer resources to do so. I need a 100%
uptime server with a Subversion server on it.

As for the Rindolf code: I need to write something that resembles a SPEC,
and then start writing the little details. Then I have to start seeing how
things are _exactly_ done in Perl 5 so I won't break any compatiblity.
Then and only then can I, or somebody else who likes the idea of Rindolf
hacking.

I do plan on giving a lecture about Rindolf with many explanations and
examples soon, and like I said would hopefully give it to the Open Source
Convention. It's one of the items on the agenda.

> > Mycreed is "I will change the world".
>

:-)

> Ummm. As long as you're not driving a bus.

Again: LOL.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> [email-masked]:~$sctrace strace /bin/foohttp://syscalltrack.sf.net/

---

From: Muli Ben-Yehuda <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:40:41 +0200

> uptime server with a Subversion server on it.

What the hell does that have to do with *writing* the code? you can do
that on a PC not connected to anything, can't you? I don't mind if you
send me a tarball, I just want to see code instead of empty talk. 

> Then and only then can I, or somebody else who likes the idea of Rindolf

Well, why don't you do it, instead of, say, fork the linux kernel? 

> Convention. It's one of the items on the agenda.

We have a name for such things: "vaporware". 
-- 
Muli Ben-Yehuda				    http://www.mulix.org/
[email-masked]:~$ sctrace strace /bin/foo  http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
Quis custodes ipsos custodiet?

---

From: Tzafrir Cohen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:26:15 +0200 (IST)

> On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 02:55:27AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote:

[ snip ]

>
> We have a name forsuch things: "vaporware".
>

Anyway, could you please lease this thread alone? (private message also
sent elsewhere)

Now that I think about it, "Trolling" is originally a method for catching
fish:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/troll.html

Cheers

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:[email-masked]
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir

---

From: Tzafrir Cohen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:35:10 +0200 (IST)

^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
^H^H^H
"OOps, there is no revoke option in mailing lists, right?"

On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

Something that should have been sent in private. And actually shouldn't
have been sent at all. "Please ignore".