Subject: The Professor of Shoe-making Walks Bare-Footed

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 10:00:45 +0300 (IDT)

Studying in the Electrical Engineering Department of the Technion proved
to be quite insightful regarding how much the faculty is willing to accept
various cutting edge technological or techo-philosophical advancements. To
me it seems that the people I am familiar with in the Open-Source world
are making a better use of the newfound technologies than those
Ivory Tower Academes can hope to claim.

1. I heard of only one course in the EE department that allows submitting
homework via E-mail alone (Micro-computers). Usually, I prepare the
homework using Word, or LaTeX, and submitting the final document via
E-mail would be more convenient (and more environmentally friendly[1])
than printing it. Some courses even require to print all the code, and
even mark some sections of it. This turns to wear out one's printing quota
which the Technion charges for.

2. I once sent the L-C lecture I prepared to my SICP lecturer. He said he
could not receive MIME attachments. So I sent it to him included in the
body of the letter as one monolithic Scheme file. :-)

3. Some courses in the EE department do not have a web-site. FuM, the
department does not require the course staff to maintain one. For SICP 2,
I volunteered to maintain a web-site, but then the lecturer claimed it
would be too much of a nuisance.

4. Some of the material that can be bought by the students is still
written by hand. I guess it takes some time to convert it into printed
form.

5. The EE department does not have a central networked source control
repository for students to use in their projects and homework. Most
students are not made aware of CVS and friends in the entire duration of
their studies, and use multiple tar.gz or zip archives to store various
versions of their code. Even the laboratories don't have their own source
control repositories.

6. I have already mowned too much about the choice of languages for
courses, and incomplete or not up-to-date software in the computer farms.
This is a problem in its own. I do think however, that a good programmer,
by definition, cannot be familiar with only one language, and some
universities or their departments don't realize that.

7. Many people of the Technion stuff seems to be quite unaware of
state-of-the-art or cutting-edge tools, despite the fact that they can
prove extremely useful. For example, I introduced VNC to my project's
supervisor.

----

I am not sure the situation is substantially better in the industry. How
many people do you know that are doing a substantial effort in becoming
familiar with more and more useful technologies, and keep up to date with
such stuff?

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

[1] - There's a purposeful double meaning here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        [email-masked]
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

"Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
"Wait a second - is n a natural number?"

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 12:00:17 +0300

> to be quite insightful regarding how much the faculty is willing to accept

Ok, the Technion-bashing thread again... Here we go ;)

> Ivory Tower Academes can hope to claim.

I agree with you here. When talking to CS professors in the Technion I
noticed that they were many times out of touch with the latest (where
latest = 10 years ;)) advancement in computers. I talked to some professor
about research ideas, and I was amazed to find out he hasn't heard of Block
Sorting (the compression algorithm behind bzip2, and in my opinion one of
the more interesting advancement in general-purpose compression algorithms
in the previous decade), P2P (this has a lot more research potential than
most people realize), rsync, and so on.
I don't expect professors to know all the details of such things, or use
them in their work or anything, but I know that if I were a professor
I'd still try to keep in touch with advancement in the world of computers
and computer science, not only with my very narrow field of research.

> than printing it. Some courses even require to print all the code, and

Convenient to whom?
How will the TA correct your errors? Comment about your work? Or don't
you expect them do it (I certainly do!!). And must TAs install 1001
applications (tex, word, wordperfect, staroffice, ghostview etc.) to view
all the papers? Have 5 different computers (Linux, Windows, Mac, etc.) to
run all these things on?

Paper is a format that everyone can write and read. It's a format that
is very easy to write comments/errors/grades on. It's a format where it is
100% guaranteed that what you see is exactly what the submitter intended for
you to see. It's a format that you can carry and sit on the grass and grade
papers ;)

When I was a student, I actually *wrote* on paper (you know, with a physical
pencil) most excercises. Only excercises involving computer output (e.g.,
writing a program) I printed. But maybe the times have changed, I don't
know...

> which the Technion charges for.

How many exercises do you print per semester? Do you really finish your
quote on printing exercises? How expensive is it? Remember, paper and
pencils would also cost you money, and so does many other things that the
Technion doesn't give you for free.

> body of the letter as one monolithic Scheme file. :-)

See why they don't like email submissions?
Sadly, not every TA and professor knows how to handle every format or
the latest email tools available. Some of them don't even understand
relatively-established tools like MIME...

> would be too much of a nuisance.

A website is a nice features, but it is *obviously* a nuisance to the teacher
who would have to make sure it's updated and correct. But good teachers
do things even when they're a nuisance (e.g., mark exercises and tests
fairly!) when they are useful for their students.

> versions of their code. Even the laboratories don't have their own source

Why not stick an introduction to tools like RCS in the same course that
teaches you about C programming on Unix, shell, vi, and so on?

> familiar with more and more useful technologies, and keep up to date with

It is not better in the industry.
I've been working in "the industry" for the last 8 years, and obviously
have kept myself very much up-to-date (otherwise, my knowledge would have
been 8 years old by now, and I think you can see it isn't). But many
other people aren't like that. I've seen people working for years on
a computer (doing programming, not secreterial work) and after several
years not actually knowing anything except the very specific things they
worked on, not being aware or even curious of most things installed on their
computer, and so on.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |      Thursday, May 9 2002, 27 Iyyar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Bigamy: Having one wife too many.
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |Monogamy: The same thing!

---

From: Oleg Goldshmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: 09 May 2002 13:11:02 +0300

"Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]> writes:

> I've seen people working for years on a computer (doing programming,
> not secreterial work) and after several years not actually knowing
> anything except the very specific things they worked on, not being
> aware or even curious of most things installed on their computer,
> and so on.

Unfortunately, I suspect learning new things is actively discouraged
(or at least not encouraged) at most industry workplaces. 

I have been lucky to work for years for a boss who let me (and others)
spend time learning new tools and technologies under the assumption
(quite correct) that even if the particular task at hand will be
delivered later because of the time and effort spent learning, the
future ones will be done much more efficiently if the employees
utilize the knowledge and the skills they have acquired. The company
(a small startup, not a big fat corporation) went as far as buying
just about any book, even not directly related to the company's
business, for any employee on request. AFAIK this practice has never
been abused, by the way, and the employees considered this one of
nicest fringe benefits. 

However, this (as well as Chen's account) is an exception rather than
the rule. That particular startup (swallowed by a big multinational
some years ago, but still exists as a coherent group AFAIK) was
staffed with people who wouldn't imagine any other way of working, and
that included the CEO.

Management is so concerned with things like time to market (and it
*is* important) etc that they typically want to hire people with
specific skills and then micromanage them so that they won't browse
tech news or try out the newest GPLed software during the 18 hours
they are supposed to spend at the office. The result is typically that
the most inquisitive people don't stay long at such companies, and
the culture perpetuates itself. Any new person who thinks that he
should be allowed to spend part of his time in such an "unproductive"
manner stands out, and is most likely rocking the boat by doing so.

Can we compile a list of Israeli employers who actively maintain and
encourage an environment conductive to advancement of knowledge and
skills in the broad sense? Criteria?

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | [email-masked] 
"We work by wit, and not by witchcraft,
 And wit depends on dilatory time..."

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:07:29 +0300 (IDT)

> Ok, the Technion-bashing thread again... Here we go ;)

It's a Technion bashing thread with a different theme. And not necessarily
against the Technion.

> and computer science, not only with my very narrow field of research.

Generalize your knowledge or bust. There was a research by historians and
anthropologists that indicated that all extinct civilizations became so
because of over-specialization. I heard someone say one should split the
Technion CS faculty in Computer Science and Software Engineering. While
those terms are not exactly synonomous (I'm not sure if there is such
thing as an exact synonym), I think they are related enough to keep them
together. CS people should understand that their research eventually
translates into code. And Software Engineering people should understand
that they need CS to code better.

In some universities, CS and EE share the same faculty. In the Technion,
that is not the case, and the two departments have duplicate courses all
over the place.

> all the papers? Have 5 different computers (Linux, Windows, Mac, etc.) to

Naturally I expect that students submit stuff in PDF or Word or anything
else the T.A. tell them they should.

> writing a program) I printed. But maybe the times have changed, I don't

I like writing stuff on computer and find myself using paper less and less
for preparing my homework assignments. I sometimes use paper for notes or
to sketch, but otherwise I can survive with my mind and with a computer
nearby. But you do have a point regarding commenting and annotating a
document. Is PDF annotatable? Maybe it should be this way.

> Technion doesn't give you for free.

It's not very expensive, but I'd still like to avoid it. If I have it on
the computer and can send it by E-mail it would be a much better solution.

> relatively-established tools like MIME...

Again, you would expect someone with a B.Sc to know how to handle a
computer, read PDF and Word attachments, and master programs like
pine/mutt or Eudora or Outlook (I'm including it for good measure - its
security is a different issue). Or at least they should be able to learn
how to do so for the sake of being T.A's or lecturers of this particular
course. There's not a man on earth who does not need to learn more than he
already knows.

> fairly!) when they are useful for their students.

My point exactly. I think every course should have a web-site. Some
courses recently went a step further: Hedva and Physics 1m required their
students to solve exercises by filling on-line web forms. This had the
happy effect of clogging the department's computer farms with sagans of
Technion freshmen who prepared their homework there. They even had to set
up the Linux farm to accomodate for that need.

> teaches you about C programming on Unix, shell, vi, and so on?

I think there should be a dedicated course about working in an integrated
modern UNIX environment. Give the students a quota-free account on a Linux
farm with GNOME/KDE and all the latest tools and bells and whistles. Let
them download, compile and install programs. Have them develop a software
project together. Etc. Matam/Mamat is clearly not enough, and the
C-Shell/Text-only Account combination can give some students a hatred
toward everything UNIXish.

> worked on, not being aware or even curious of most things installed on their

I'm sad to hear it. Naturally, the people I worked with back in my days,
also specialized to one extent or another, but most of them were
open-minded enough. Again, they had a schedule and could not learn
everything at once, so they did not learn everything they encountered.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

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---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:22:08 +0300 (IDT)

> skills in the broad sense? Criteria?

I can only tell from my own experience: when I worked in Smart-Link, I
spent hours on ends learning new things or hacking on stuff that were not
directly related to my work. But then again my job definition was
half-tester (of a software-based modem)/ half jack-of-all-trades
programmer. Once when the head of the software department introduced me to
a visitor he said I was the engineer with the most diverse knowledge in
the company. He said that it is usually a good thing, but that I sometimes
get carried away in my diversity.

We had a schedule, and I managed to do what I was expected to do, but I
was given the liberty to follow my own interests. At least that was the
case for me, but I came under the impression that that was the case for
other engineers, too.

This has also been the case (to one extent or the other) in the other
places I worked in (check my Resume), all of whom were small or
medium-sized companies. In one place where I worked for a brief time (a
very small company) my boss said I should focus on what I was doing and
not develop O-S software for re-creation. I'm not sure if he meant that I
should have a 0% diversion factor or not.

Like Oleg said, if I am hired at a company that tries to "micromanage" me,
I'll probably quit very soon, because I'd feel that it is not a good place
to work in, and probably leave.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Oleg Goldshmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: 09 May 2002 16:12:08 +0300

Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]> writes:

> My point exactly. I think every course should have a web-site. 

http://web.mit.edu/ocw/

There is a catch: the school needs a budget for this kind of thing.
At MIT I suppose there is dedicated staff to help the faculty
maintaining this.