Subject: RE: [hackers-il] Re: Lightning Speed Math Teaching

From: Chen Shapira <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:12:43 +0200

> What I was saying, in other words, was that the amount of math that we
> have in school is just fine. This silly race against time -- know more
> in less time, finish university at 21, at 20, while at highschool,
> become a maths prodigy at 16 -- what is it all for? Kids at school
> play basketball, watch TV, play computer games, learn to deal with the
> other sex, hell even play "ajuim" and climb trees. That's what they
> *do*, and that's what they *should do*. There's no other way to
> develop a healthy psychology. In my opinion, parents who force their
> kid to learn all day don't deserve to be parents any more than those
> who beat up their child.

When I say "kids should study math" and you say "kids should play" we
actually say "we know what will give you a happy life"
While we don't.

So what is important is to have a choice.
If you want to study university level math at highschool - do it. 
If you want to play, thats fine.
If your idea of a play is writing a 300 pages history thesis, or
volunteering in a biology lab, thats also fine.

We can't say "kids should play". When I was a child my parents believed that
a kid shouldn't stay home and read all the time, so I was forced to play
outside with other kids. It was hell. I'm clumsy and I hated it.
I was also forced to learn Ballet, because that's what girls should do,
again, pure hell.

People should have a choice, children included.

Which is why shlomi should be allowed to study infi at 6th grade. I didn't
say everyone should, infact I pointed out that most kids couldn't and
wouldn't want to. But those who do - should be helped by the educational
system. Not by their parent - by the system. Thats what I ment when I said
equal opprotunity - if we both love math, but your father is a mathematician
and mine is a cab driver - it shouldn't stop me for having access to the
same knowledge you have.

---

From: Alex Shnitman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:17:45 +0200

Hi, Chen!

On Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 04:12:43PM +0200, you wrote the following:

> [...]

But where would that desire come from? Don't underestimate the
parents' influence on the kid's development. A kid who'd want to do
that has developed in that direction from very early stages. What I'm
saying is that kids should *not* develop in that direction as much as
they shouldn't develop in the opposite direction -- refusing to learn
altogether, and that's because I think that balance is the most
important thing in any development, and generally in life too. A kid
who grew up with such deviations, in *any* direction, will be an
unbalanced person, and I happen to know what unbalanced people are
like.

> I was also forced to learn Ballet, because that's what girls should do,

I understand what you're saying, and it was a huge mistake on their
part. I hope you understand that that's not the kind of thing I'm
preaching for. I definitely disprove the use of force in order to
steer the kid's development. But the parents have a lot of influence
outside of force. That is a very subtle and complicated craft -- yes,
it's mighty hard to be a good parent.

-- 
Alex Shnitman                            | http://www.debian.org
[email-masked], [email-masked]   +-----------------------
http://alexsh.hectic.net    UIN 188956    PGP key on web page
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	-- Gaal Yahas

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:56:19 +0200 (IST)

> unbalanced person, and I happen to know what unbalanced people are

I consider this a diversion from the topics of "what math schools should
teach" to "what the parents should encourage their child to do.". Now my
parents gave me a choice and did not force me to do anything (except maybe
Organ lessons, which I liked, and not regret), and I came out just fine.

I did not do a lot of sports then, but now I ride my bike every weekend. I
also used to jog during week days but lately I have had weird leg
problems. I also hate jogging, but my mother keeps bugging me to do that.
She doesn't run or bike herself, BTW.

Now, I think math can be taught in a much higher level, without ruining a
child's childhood. And like I said, it can be taught in the same amount of
hours math is taught today, and in a free country by a fully objective
and benevolent school.

1. Do you agree with this claim?
2. How do you think it should be done?
3. What can we do to push the suggestions further?

If you wish to go on with slightly different threads, then change the
title.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

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Shlomi Fish        [email-masked] 
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

The prefix "God Said" has the extraordinary logical property of 
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