Subject: Email practices (was: RE: The theory and practice of paranoia (was: RE: [hackers-il]Anothergood article by Joel Spolsky))

From: "Arik Baratz" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:55:51 +0200

Gilad beat me to it.

Sorry, but I use Outlook and Mozilla for email. If someone here is using something which is non-conventional, it's you, Nadav:

User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i

Actually I am using Outlook in a non-conventional way to help make my email more readable - the outlook convention for replies is to put my name in square brackets *and a different color* before whatever I write in the body of the original message. I realize that colors don't go well with plain-text email.

Uh, and my signature is only one line for follow-ups (versus 13 lines for new email).

-- Arik

-----Original Message-----
From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 5:44 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: The theory and practice of paranoia (was: RE: [hackers-il]Anothergood article by Joel Spolsky)

On Mon, 2002-06-17 at 18:15, Nadav Har'El wrote:

> P.S.
> Arik, PLEASE try to follow common email conventions. It is very annoying
> to reply to your emails, with their huge unsplit lines, 20-line-long
> signature and the worst possible way to quote a replied-to mail (you put it
> ALL at the end of the message as "Original Message").

In short, you're telling him to not use Outlook :-)))

--
Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]>
Code mangler, senior coffee drinker and VP SIGSEGV
Qlusters ltd.

"A billion flies _can_ be wrong - I'd rather eat lamb chops than shit."
        -- Linus Torvalds on lkml

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---

From: Tzafrir Cohen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:10:51 +0300 (IDT)

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Arik Baratz wrote:

> Gilad beat me to it.
>
> Sorry, but I use Outlook and Mozilla for email.

Mozilla has good support for decent quoting of messages. As for outlook: I
never really tried messing with its configuration, so I have no idea.

> If someone here is
> using something which is non-conventional, it's you, Nadav:
>
> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i

Not that much non-conventional.

>
> Actually I am using Outlook in a non-conventional way to help make my
> email more readable - the outlook convention for replies is to put my
> name in square brackets *and a different color* before whatever I write
> in the body of the original message. I realize that colors don't go well
> with plain-text email.

Aren't there other quoting styles?

[ When I get a message that is a reply and includes original message below
I usually other bother and edit the message properly, or don't bother and
simply delete everything below. NM if some of it was relevant ]

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:[email-masked]
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:23:40 +0200

> never really tried messing with its configuration, so I have no idea.
Hence from now on I will opt for Mozilla when writing on hackers-il.

> Not that much non-conventional.
Ahem. Conventionality is defined in relation to a scope. If your scope 
is the linux-il crowd - you are right. If it's the entire email users 
worldwide - I'm afraid that Outlook wins big-time over Mutt.

> Aren't there other quoting styles?
No AFAIK. I don't like Outlook myself and I don't mess with it too much.

> simply delete everything below. NM if some of it was relevant ]
I'm afraid I mostly do the same when encountering the same, however in 
some cases I make an effort and copy over paragraphs I want to respond 
to. Sometimes I even indent them with '>' marks :-)

-- Arik

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:26:25 +0300

> Sorry, but I use Outlook and Mozilla for email. If someone here is using something which is non-conventional, it's you, Nadav:

Better wake up and smell the coffee...
I get almost 400 emails a day. Almost without exception, everyone splits
their lines (usually to 80 characters, some Microsoft-users use 72 characters
for some reason). Both outlook and Mozilla apparently have an option to split
lines - take a look... (Mozilla even does it by default, but the default is
72 characters).

When you don't split lines, it makes it harder for people to quote parts of
your message :(

> Actually I am using Outlook in a non-conventional way to help make my email more readable - the outlook convention for replies is to put my name in square brackets *and a different color* before wh…

Colors don't go at all with plain-text email. Please don't tell me I'm
the last of the dinosaurs to use (and prefer) plain-text email, because
that is certainly not true.

One of the nice things about the limits to Microsoft's power is that they
rarely ever managed to dictate an Internet standard. Their proprietary
applications lost to TCP/IP, FTP, SMTP, HTTP, HTML and other open (and
mostly Unix-derived) standards. They sometimes like to pretend their
standards (e.g., SMB, Exchange) are making a big impact on the Internet,
but in fact they are not.

Similarly, Microsoft's crazy quoting methods (colors, vertical lines, etc.)
is "standard" only in bill gates' mind and those of his blind followers.
Most of the Internet still uses the much simpler and more elegant and
more portable ways of the olden days.

Besides, as people already mentioned time and again, quoting the entire
message at the the end of your message not only reeks of Microsoftism, it
doesn't make any sense. People have read the entire thread, and don't
need you to repeat the entire message; If you want to respond to a small
issue in the message you can (and should) quote a few relevant lines you're
responding to, but quoting the entire message rarely ever makes sense. It
only leads to messages with 300 useless lines and 10 levels of quoting
with only 2 new lines (this happened on this list a couple of months ago)
and to huge mailing list archives.

> Uh, and my signature is only one line for follow-ups (versus 13 lines for new email).

God be praised :)

>         -- Linus Torvalds on lkml

This signature is highly relevant to the Microsoft "standards" discussion :)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Monday, Jun 17 2002, 8 Tammuz 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Live as if you were to die tomorrow,
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |learn as if you were to live forever.

---

From: Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]>
Date: 17 Jun 2002 19:34:30 +0300

> Sorry, but I use Outlook and Mozilla for email. If someone here is using something which is non-conventional, it's you, Nadav:

Mutt unconventional? perhaps. But I refer you to my .sig... :-)

I was trying be nice and defend you. It seems that you've mistaken my
compasion for support. You have left me no choice but to claim my
honour... 

"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger
those who would attempt to poison and destroy the mail system. And you
will know my name is John Postel when I lay my vengeance upon thee." :-)

> Uh, and my signature is only one line for follow-ups (versus 13 lines for new email).

Yes, and your company [explicit deleted] product adds 4 lines to that
and Yahoo craps another 10 on top of that...

Just let it go Arik, maybe Nadav shouldn't have complained, but you on
the other hand are not the righteous man by a long run...

Gilad.

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:40:26 +0200

> lines - take a look... (Mozilla even does it by default, but the 
I think we had this discussion before. If you use a fixed font, fixed 
width window that I understand why you might like it. However, if you 
are like me and most people I know and use a GUI mailer which can 
display any variable number (usually more than 80 characters) in one 
line of the message edit box, than email from people like you simply 
occupy a small part of my mail window and are harder to read.

> When you don't split lines, it makes it harder for people to quote 
Not if you use a decent GUI client. Mozilla is very good at it.

> that is certainly not true.
I used Pine until recently. I got spoiled, however. You are not a 
dinosaur, but you have to realize that most people don't use it and 
since the standard has changed, Mutt should contain line splitting and 
reformatting algorithms to deal with the standard, rather than have the 
GUI users (which are the majority, if I'm not mistaken) read 
badly-formatted email messages.

> but in fact they are not.
I can't care less about Microsoft here, I'm generalizing to GUI MUAs.

> more portable ways of the olden days.
Are you sure? I'd like to know how many mailers these days support 
HTML-mail. Any site which gives stats?

> and to huge mailing list archives.
This paragraph is correct and I will repent and mend my ways

> > Uh, and my signature is only one line for follow-ups (versus 13 
Right back at'cha.

-- Arik

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:49:22 +0200

> Mutt unconventional? perhaps. But I refer you to my .sig... :-)
Few truths more true have been told.

> will know my name is John Postel when I lay my vengeance upon thee." :-)
I have tried to look it up in the reference from the movie and I 
couldn't find it. However, I match your compassion and raise you my self 
pitty for using Outlook. And Windows in general. Alas, I am working in a 
Windows shop and my job description requires me to use one. I wish it 
wasn't so.

> and Yahoo craps another 10 on top of that...
And your MTA adds another Received: header line at the top. So? you're 
not using a 2.4kbaud modems.

> the other hand are not the righteous man by a long run...
I am not seeking righteousness by any means. I am not righteous, I am 
the lowest of lowlifes, wretched creatures that roam the earth. But I am 
far from the destroyer of humanity and their creation, the Internet, and 
its inhabitants, as some people portray.

I rather go to the original paranoya thread, if you all don't mind. I 
promise to be good.

-- Arik

---

From: "Eliran" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:02:07 +0200

> Sorry, but I use Outlook and Mozilla for email. If someone here is using
> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i

I don't find mutt non-conventional, I use outlook sometimes
winmutt and sometimes mozilla mailer, but when I'm on linux
I use mutt.

BTW it looks like a mail clients' war is being started ? naa its just me.

Eliran

(Yahoo your turn:)

---

From: Eran Tromer <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:05:42 +0300

> occupy a small part of my mail window and are harder to read.

RFC2646 to the rescue (http://rfc2646.x42.com).
By using a "Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed" header, you can 
enjoy both worlds. Mail readers with RFC2646 support will freely rewrap 
the message, while other readers will show the preformatted text.

Mozilla seems to do the right thing on both the sending and receiving 
ends; dunno about other software.

   Regards,
     Eran

---

From: "Eliran" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:06:56 +0200

Another reason why Outlook suck, some messages come with an "attached"
file, ATT000XX.txt which contains the real message so I have to copy it
to the /Original Message/ `field' and send it.

Is that something to have with mutt ? Currently I got it from both Mulix and
Arik Baratz, anyone ?

Eliran

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eran Tromer" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Arik Baratz" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Email practices (was: RE: The theory and practice of paranoia
(was: RE: [hackers-il]Anothergood article by Joel Spolsky))

   Regards,
     Eran

---

From: Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]>
Date: 17 Jun 2002 20:17:26 +0300

> couldn't find it. However, I match your compassion and raise you my self 

http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/film/pulp.htm

> Windows shop and my job description requires me to use one. I wish it 

I feel your pain man ;-) My last job was like that.

> its inhabitants, as some people portray.

Why? It sounds like one hell of a job title:

		Arik Baratz
Destroyer of humanity, creation, the Internet, and its inhabitants

Cel: 555-.... Fax: 555-... Home: 555-xxx

OK, you might want to shorten it a bit... :-)

> I rather go to the original paranoya thread, if you all don't mind. I 

Paranoid? dude, I work for a company that sells supercomputers for
running (among other things) simulations of neuclear blasts. The EMP
device in the server room and gigawatt electro magnet coil built into
the doorway are mere, hm... precautions :-)

Gilad.

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:32:59 +0200

> http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/film/pulp.htm
Not the reference in the movie... in the New Testament!

> I feel your pain man ;-) My last job was like that.
Let's join in togeather: We love you Gilad. We love you Arik. Would 
anyone else from the group like to come forward?

> Why? It sounds like one hell of a job title:
Oh yes, one HELL of a job title.

> OK, you might want to shorten it a bit... :-)
Muhahaha. Power corrupts, but absolute power... is kinda neat. And you 
got the phone numbers wrong. The cell phone is 666-23278.

> the doorway are mere, hm... precautions :-)
You got an EMP device in the server room? That is so cool.

How does it work? That is, what technique does it employ to create the 
pulse? There's very little information on the Internet about these 
things, and it is considered semi-military technology. I wouldn't be 
surprised if you refuse to answer, though.

I have my own idea about how such a pulse can be created, and I have yet 
to see the particular technique mentioned anywhere. Then again, there's 
very little information about it.

-- Arik

---

From: Gilad Ben-Yossef <[email-masked]>
Date: 18 Jun 2002 11:12:49 +0300

> surprised if you refuse to answer, though.

OK. Please give me your full attention; this is very important. The pen
like device I'm holding in my right hand here is called a "selective
memory manipulator". It was given to us by some nice friends over at
Alpha Centuri Zeta. Please look closely at the upper side of the
operatos while I put on these snazzy sun glasses...FLASH!

Sorry, I was only joking. We don't have an EMP device in the server room
or an electro magnet built into the door. Guess you never read
'Cryptonomicon'?

Anyway, you have won the distinguished honour shared by few mortals
(last one being Linus) of being the source of one of my .sigs... :-)

> very little information about it.

Yes. Ahmm... you just sit right there and relax and I'll be right back.
Just going to make a quick phone call...

Gilad.

"You got an EMP device in the server room? That is so cool."
      -- from a hackers-il thread on paranoia

---

From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:38:15 +0200

> operatos while I put on these snazzy sun glasses...FLASH!
Didn't work. I remember everything. Everything. From the, um, that thing 
back there, to the, eh, stuff right now. What did you say your name was?

> or an electro magnet built into the door. Guess you never read
You're just saying that 'cause you're scared to lose your job. NOW I 
don't believe you. You do have an EMP device and that's that. The cat is 
out of the bag. Don't bother denying it now. Next thing you'll say I was 
not abducted by alians. Hey, you're one of 'THEM'! Fess up!

I haven't read Cryptonomicon, although it's on my (longish) list. I did 
not really believe you have an EMP device (which is, actually, a 
semi-military technology) or a Gigawatt electromagnet (which would take 
a small power plant to run, if it were there, and some peole claim that 
this sort of fields effect humans too).

I am interested in the subject, though, and have my own design. Which I 
would gladly reveal to the highest bidder :-)

> (last one being Linus) of being the source of one of my .sigs... :-)
I am quoted in your .sig? That is so cool.

> Just going to make a quick phone call...
If you have any productive ideas you can use my other email address - 
[email-masked].

>       -- from a hackers-il thread on paranoia
:-)

-- Arik