Subject: Meta: Paying for YahooGroups Hosting

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:48:14 +0200 (IST)

Hi good people!

Another meta if you may: I think it would be a good idea if one of us pays
to YahooGroups to remove the ads from our messages and the archive. They
are getting very annoying.

Now, the reason I say so, is because YahooGroups (and formerly eGroups)
have given us a great service, using a highly robust and secure E-mail
server and mailing list manager (qmail and ezmlm), a capable search
engine, real-world URLs, and an easy to use interface for administration.

With all due respect, I think such a good service can and should cost
money. If we switch to [email-masked], we'll get Mailman which is
less secure than ezmlm (sends the password in cleartext every month), its
E-mail managment is not well-documented (last time I checked) and has no
search capability. We'll also lose all our historical URLs  and Google
will hate us for that.

I don't think free speach equals free beer. If we consume some bandwidth
and maintainance costs from Yahoo Groups, than we are definitely can be
expected to pay. There was some talk about the end of the free ride on the
Internet. I think a system without too many ads where some individuals and
organizations will have to pay for hosting is better than an ad-coholic
web-sites that are free.

At the moment, I life on the expense of my parents, but also earn some
money giving private lessons in High School Physics. I can afford paying
for this myself. Nevertheless, I will still eventually have an apartment
to pay for and some travelling expenses, and generally being a student in
a foreign city eats your monet quite a bit. If someone here has a positive
cash-flow and is willing to pay for further Yahoo hosting instead of me,
please stand forth.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        [email-masked]
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

"Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
"Wait a second - is n a natural number?"

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From: Muli Ben-Yehuda <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:49:47 +0200

> are getting very annoying.

procmail is a wonderful tool. 

:0 fhbw
* Delivered-To:[email-masked]
| sed '/^\(> \)*-\{24\} Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -\{21\}~-->$/,/^\(> \)*-\{69\}~->$/d'

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:52:59 +0200 (IST)

> | sed '/^\(> \)*-\{24\} Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -\{21\}~-->$/,/^\(> \)*-\{69\}~->$/d'

I'm not just talking about the web ads - I'm talking about those in the
web interface, which I use quite a lot. (yes, they are ad-blockers.
*sigh*)

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email-masked]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:07:18 +0200

> are getting very annoying.

I don't understand you...
We're a groups of *hackers*. Probably half of the people on this list
have a server and can host this list... Someone even did offer to (after that
hackers-il gettogether in my place), but I don't know what happened with that
offer.

If people want, I'll even host the list myself...

> engine, real-world URLs, and an easy to use interface for administration.

Highly robust? secure? great service?

Why do we need those things? We also don't need egroups' file storage,
polls, or any of the other crap they have.

Probably the only thing we need is an archive. And even that doesn't
necessarily need to be done at the same site running the mailing list.

> money.

Then feel free to pay it...

> If we switch to [email-masked], we'll get Mailman which is

What do you mean "we'll get mailman"? We'll get whatever somebody bothered
to install.
On my server, for example (running ivrix-discuss, for example) we run
Majordomo.

And anyway, your security concerns are not to important: what can the
uber-cracker who stole your mailman-password do to you? Unsubscribe you?
Send spam to the list? Wow, I'm scared :)

> organizations will have to pay for hosting is better than an ad-coholic

And how exactly are we going to collect that money? Ask everybody on the
list to send 10 shekels a year (because it won't cost more than that!)?
The mess will be horrible. Or are you willing to fund it yourself?
(I know, I read: the answer is no).

The obvious solution, which people have been doing for years, many years
before egroups came along, is to host the mailing list on one of the member's
server. The marginal cost to that member is near-zero. In fact, the
machine hosting ivrix.org.il is probably sending out mails hundreds of
times more than the amount we can expect out of hackers-il.

Again, if there is no other option, I volunteer my server.

> cash-flow and is willing to pay for further Yahoo hosting instead of me,

Why are you telling us all these petty financial details? How much does
Yahoogroups cost anyway, for a group our size (and with our number of
messages per month)?
If it's anything more than 50 shekels a month, it's an outrageous price.
You won't need to give out traveling or an apartment because of such a fee ;)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |     Saturday, Jan 11 2003, 9 Shevat 5763
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |If Windows is the answer, you didn't
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |understand the question.

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From: Arik Baratz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 03:42:56 +0200

Nadav Har'El wrote:

[snip]

> If people want, I'll even host the list myself...
I don't know if you have been following, but I have registered 
hackers.org.il. It is currently pointing at vipe.technion.ac.il, and 
there's ezmlm which I have recently became acquainted with.

I have asked for a suggestion for a name - 0 replies. I can set up the 
mailing list in a matter of hours. Only problem is the archive. We need 
to somehow go over the archive and convert it into another (maildir?) 
format.

> necessarily need to be done at the same site running the mailing list.
Speaking about an archive, did anyone check GMAME lately? They are 
subscribe to linux-il and they store an archive on their NNTP server.

> Then feel free to pay it...
I beg to differ. Good service costs, but it ain't necessarily money. It 
can cost time, it can cost other resources (barter), and it can cost 
money. I'm for paying with time and expertise, because for me it costs 
less and be more fun.

> Again, if there is no other option, I volunteer my server.
I'm preparing to partcipate in a shared hosting initiative. The one that 
involves a bunch of guys that host a server and pay for its hosting. A 
coop if you like. When I get there, I will have a decent server to do 
all this fancy stuff like mailing list web-interface and web-enabled 
archiving. Until I do, we can use your server for that, if it's ok by you.

-- Arik

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From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 06:04:59 +0200 (IST)

> If people want, I'll even host the list myself...

Again, I'm happy with the Yahoo Groups service. I don't mind it hosting
somewhere else, but we may lost our historical articles, may not have a
search engine, etc.

> Why do we need those things? We also don't needegroups' file storage,

Right we don't. But they are sometimes convenient.

> necessarily need to be done at the same site running the mailing list.

mail-archive.com? That's not a bad service, but sometimes reveal E-mail
addresses, and not quite as nice as Yahoo Groups.

> Then feel free to pay it...

Maybe I'll have to.

> > search capability. We'll also lose all our historical URLsand Google
> > will hate us for that.
>

Understood.

> Send spam to the list? Wow, I'm scared :)

He can do whatever he pleases with this password that this interface lets
him. I bet someone has been harvesting all of them for a long time as we
speak. In any case, we can also install ezmlm, so it's not such a big
deal. Of course, ezmlm does not have the nice interface Yahoo Groups built
for it, but this can be fixed with a few hours of Perl hacking.

> (I know, I read: the answer is no).

I want _someone_ to pay for it and this may be me.

> machine hosting ivrix.org.ilis probably sending out mails hundreds of

Your server is accepted with great thanks. But I want to keep our old
URLs, keep the nice Yahoo Groups service, keep the archive and the search
engine. And I don't mind paying. Think of the years Hackers-IL existed as
a trial period and now we have to pay.

> > a foreign city eats your monet quitea bit. If someone here has a positive

I don't know.

> You won't need to give out traveling or an apartment because of such a fee ;)

I'll find out. But Chen mentioned something like that a few times ago.
Chen? Can you trace the URL?

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

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From: Sagi Bashari <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 08:53:24 +0200

>for it, but this can be fixed with a few hours of Perl hacking.
Few points:
* You can easily disable the monthly send of passwords with mailman.

* Sending the passwords over email is just as secure as moderation over 
email, if someone can read your email he can still do anything to your 
list subscription, and probably manage the whole list if you're a 
moderator. I don't think we should worry about *that*, if it worries 
you, make sure no one does read your email.

* Ezmlm only works with qmail.

Sagi