Subject: Expanding our Langauges GCD - A plan

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:05:22 +0200 (IST)

Well, I toyed with several ideas for expanding our languages greatest
common denominator and came to the following conclusion:

The correct system works as long as we assume zero-knowledge. Which means,
that if I wish to bring some Haskell code, I can, as long as I include
enough comments to explain it and then some explanation of my own.
Likewise, for other languages. Most ANSI C code probably does not need
explanation, (unless it's a very obfuscated one).

Eventually, people may get interested enough to thoroughly study the
language on their own. Do everybody here have an online C.V. where they
keep the list of languages they know? I do, and I recommend anyone to
follow suit (from many reasons):

http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/SFresume.html

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

Knuth is not God! His favourite language is C-Web and God is a LISP
Programmer. Ergo: they are not the same entity.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish        [email-masked]
Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail:       [email-masked]

"Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
"Wait a second - is n a natural number?"

---

From: guy keren <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:43:45 +0200 (EET)

> explanation, (unless it's a very obfuscated one).

oh, it doesn't matter _that_ much. i, being the lazy closed-minded
programmer that i am, simply delete any message that contains examples in
haskell, lisp or scheme, for sheer lack of interest.

just to get a basic idea - how many people here know haskell? ;)
(besides shlomi, that is).

--
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

---

From: mulix <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:40:42 +0200

> haskell, lisp or scheme, for sheer lack of interest.

shame on you, choo. a day when you don't learn something new is a day
wasted. 

> (besides shlomi, that is).

i know it just enough to understand the snippets given so far. same
goes for scheme. lisp and ML i've actually written small things in. 
-- 
The ill-formed Orange		
Fails to satisfy the eye:       http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/ 
Segmentation fault.		http://syscalltrack.sf.net/

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:15:17 +0200

On Wed, Mar 06, 2002, guy keren wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] Expanding our Langauges GCD - A plan":
>...

Hear, hear!
I delete messages simply for *mentioning* haskell, lisp or scheme. Luckily
I looked at yours before deleting it ;)

Speaking seriously for a moment, I probably know a dozen computer languages
and realize that there're probably a few dozen others that I don't know.
I will never, and will never want to, know *all* the possible computer
languages.
For N languages, there are N^2 ways to compare two of those, and N^7 ways
to write a posting comparing 7 of them. This is why these postings bore me...

> (besides shlomi, that is).

Not me...
I've read some "functional programming" introduction, which mentioned Haskell
I think (is it that "lazy evaluation" language?), but don't really know
anything about it. Please don't follow up with a posting on why Haskell is
the best thing since sliced bread, and why I should give up C/C++/Perl/Fortran/
Forth/Logo and switch to Haskell/Scheme/Icon/Snobol/Prolog/Intercal...

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Thursday, Mar 7 2002, 23 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |This space is for sale - inquire inside.
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |

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From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:19:56 +0200

> to write a posting comparing 7 of them. This is why these postings bore me...

Oops, this is an embarrassing mathematical error, but for large enough N,
the result is close enough to N^7... You get the idea...

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Thursday, Mar 7 2002, 23 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I'm a peripheral visionary: I see into
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |the future, but mostly off to the sides.

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:21:59 +0200 (IST)

Nadav, are you being sarcastic? I could not quite get it from your post,
which was amusing in any case.

I think my case studies days are a bit over. But I would like to be able
to give code in Perl, Haskell, Matlab, awk, bash, whatever, without being
flamed. You do agree however, that comparing two or more different
_algorithms_ for accomplishing the same task is a worthy goal.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:26:12 +0200 (IST)

> the result is close enough to N^7... You get the idea...

It's Theta(N^7) or at least O(N^7), so it's quite all right. Not exactly
the same thing as exactly this number but we got your point.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

There is no IGLU Cabal! It's members can be arranged in N! orders to form
N! different Cabals. The algorithm to find which order formulates the
correct IGLU Cabal is NP-Complete.

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From: Omer Zak <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:34:37 +0200 (EET)

> the result is close enough to N^7... You get the idea...

If we allow a language to be compared to itself and to itself (and also
other pathological kinds of comparisons), then N^7 will be the correct
result.
                                             --- Omer
There is no IGLU Cabal.  Any time IGLU Cabal is brought into existence,
it is redefined to be something else.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:40:07 +0200

> other pathological kinds of comparisons), then N^7 will be the correct

:)

The N^7 count also requires us to think that "comparing A with B" and
"comparing B with A" are two valid, different comparisons.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Thursday, Mar 7 2002, 23 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |All those who believe in psychokinesis,
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |raise my hand.

---

From: "Amir Abiri" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:46:22 +0200

From: "Omer Zak" <[email-masked]>

> other pathological kinds of comparisons), then N^7 will be the correct

Yes. And also compare C to Perl, and then compare Perl to C again.

The corect Formula is: N! / (N - K)! where K is the number of objects in the
set being compared - if i remember correctly.
In this case it should be: N! / (N - 7)!. If i wasn't mistaken so far then
for 30 languages you have:
2.6525285981219105863630848e+32
-----------------------------------------  = 10260432000 Different
Comparison combinations of any 7 of them...
10888869450418352160768000000

Again - i could be wrong...

--
"God is a programmer".

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:56:21 +0200

> set being compared - if i remember correctly.

If you don't want to count "A vs. B" and "B vs. A" as two different
comparisons, the correct formula is actually

	N!
      --------
      K! (N-K)!

This is known as the number of "combinations", and should be familiar to
most of you as the binomial coefficients.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Thursday, Mar 7 2002, 23 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Happiness isn't getting what you want,
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |it's wanting what you got.

---

From: guy keren <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:34:39 +0200 (EET)

> which was amusing in any case.

i don't think he was sarcastic in this case. i know i wasn't.

> flamed.

no deal. you may keep snippeting. we may keep flaming away.

> You do agree however, that comparing two or more different

ah, that's a worthy task - unless thw two algorithms are the same
algorithm compared to itself :P~~

--
guy

---

From: Oleg Goldshmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: 07 Mar 2002 14:57:34 +0200

"Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]> writes:

> I delete messages simply for *mentioning* haskell, lisp or scheme. 

Unless it is in the signature, I hope ;-)

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | [email-masked] 
[Lisp] is the only computer language that is beautiful. 
                      - Neal Stephenson

---

From: Oleg Goldshmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: 07 Mar 2002 15:00:36 +0200

> no deal. you may keep snippeting. we may keep flaming away.

We'll keep flaming, anyway. ;-)

Shlomi, type 

"The Great Computer Language Shootout"

into Google, hit "I'm Feeling Lucky",  and enjoy it privately.

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:14:45 +0200 (IST)

> into Google, hit "I'm Feeling Lucky",  and enjoy it privately.

Hitting "I'm Feeling Lucky" is hubris. You'll never know if you'll
encounter a page in a more linked to site, or the site was down last time
Google scaned the web, etc. I only use the search or in case I use
Konqueror "gg:my query here".

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

Knuth is not God! Typing "God" into Google and pressing "I'm Feeling
Lucky" would not lead you to his homepage.

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:46:02 +0200

> Konqueror "gg:my query here".

No, hubris is me telling people "if you want to find my homepage, just type
'nadav' in Google and press 'I'm Feeling Lucky'" :)

BTW, Shlomi, searching for "shlomi" in google, gives you only on second
place. Good luck on getting to the coveted first ("I'm Feeling Lucky")
position!

> Lucky" would not lead you to his homepage.

Yes, but typing "Knuth" will. More than can be said for "fish" and your
homepage ;)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Thursday, Mar 7 2002, 23 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Sorry, but my karma just ran over your
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |dogma.

---

From: mulix <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:48:16 +0200

> place. Good luck on getting to the coveted first ("I'm Feeling Lucky")

contributing to the general silliness, the day when i reached the
coveted first place with 'mulix' was a proud day indeed. (you decide
if i'm kidding or not). 
-- 
The ill-formed Orange		
Fails to satisfy the eye:       http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/ 
Segmentation fault.		http://syscalltrack.sf.net/

---

From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:55:43 +0200

> coveted first place with 'mulix' was a proud day indeed. (you decide

Getting even more silly (is that even possible?), try searching for
"jinjit" and look who's in the second place :)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |       Thursday, Mar 7 2002, 23 Adar 5762
[email-masked]             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |replaced, you can't be promoted.

---

From: Shlomi Fish <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:04:47 +0200 (IST)

> place. Good luck on getting to the coveted first ("I'm Feeling Lucky")

I'm not aiming for that. I strictly identify myself as Shlomi Fish.
"shlomif" however gives me and that is my default username, and the way
people refer to me for short. (SF is also San-Fransisco, SourceForge,
Santa-Fe, Science-Fiction)

I do have some other first hits: "freecell solver" (due to the Freshmeat
effect), "ip noise", "fcfs rwlock" and "rindolf" (;-)). Having a Googlized
presence depends on how much your resource is linked to.

> Yes, but typing "Knuth" will. More than can be said for "fish" and your

I'm not changing my last name just because it's a very common one and also
an English word. I'm perfectly happy being know as "Shlomi Fish", albeit
it is possible that there are a few others named this way.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish  (The Man, The Legend, The person whose last name does
not lead to his homepage)

Knuth is not God! If God was called Donald, would you shorten it to Don?